'SOME OF MY ALBUMS, I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I WAS ON.'
During forty years in the spotlight, he has been accused of so many things - from walking on a dead man's grave to dyeing his hair. How do you plead, Paul McCartney?"
Words: Phil Sutcliffe Photographer: Bill Bernstein
Sir Paul McCartney is running late. Still, waiting to talk to him, at least there's the chance to browse his Soho Square offices. His staff operate a sot of three-steps-to-heaven system - every 20 minutes or so you're ushered up to the next floor and offered a fresh cup of tea.
So, ground level: cream marble floor, dark wood furniture; walls hung with huge canvasses by Brian Clarke, the artist who painted the sleave for 1982's Tug of War; a McCartney collage of himself and Linda tucked away in a corner. First floor: bookshelf laden with dictionaries and Beatles volumes; a large, dauby protrait of Buddy Holly by McCartney (who owns Holly's publishing rights). Second floor: framed Beatles photos, including a Sgt. Pepper-era classic of John and Paul pointing at each other and laughing their socks off.
There's a murmur of voices from the inner sanctum. One of them umistakably belongs to McCartney. He's been famous since his early 20's, of course. Now, as a sextegenarian knight of the realm, he is almost equally loved and maligned. Following marriage to ex-model Heather Mills in 2002, his relationship with the tabloids has been stormy. And yet there are moves to reach out to new audiences. A lively new album, Chaos and Creation in the Backyard, out in September, is the result of an alliance with Radiohead producer Nigel Godrich.
The door opens. Two sharply suited men are ushered out. McCartney's attire is casual, his office neatly ordered. I join him on a sofa beneath a large abstract painting. His manner is releaxed, confident, look-you-in-the-eye solid. A man of affairs. But the dazzling lad of his youth still lingers within the seasoned face, the light, hoarse voice.
You're a 62 year old ex-Beatle. What do you think when you look in the mirror these days? [Laughs] "Jesus! Is that me?" Nah, I don't stand there that much. Get my hair right once for the day, you know. But seeing my image looking older, that hits me with photographs. [Scouse] "You're not as young as you were, lad." I just have to come to terms with it.
But you did decide to dye your hair... Yeah. I saw [Pet Shop Boy] Neil Tennant and he was goofing about, [impersonates Tennant's archness] "Oooo, Paul, surprise, surprise, you dye your hair." I said, "Come on, man, everyone knows that - it was grey and then suddenly it wasn't!" And I got grief from people blaming Heather for it. God in heaven, 10 years before I met her I was thinking about dyeing my hair. I tried it in Australia once. Looked cool until I went onstage. Then this blue liquid came pouring down my forehead. Highly embarrassing.
There are stories about you ringing up journalists who give your wife a hard time - is that true? It is. Linda got terrible flak when we got married [she was blamed, along with Yoko Ono, for The Beatles' split, and criticised for her musical contribution to Wings]. It's happened with Heather all over again. I tried to let it go over my head, but these columnists got too vindictive. I could see it was hurting Heather. I got a few cuttings together. I couldn't believe it. There was one where this woman was saying, 'What is she doing opening a cosmetics company?' And then it went, 'She's not even pretty.' I thought [intense Scouse], 'Excuse me, I'm ringing her up.' I was like, 'How dare you write all this crap? I'm her husband. I've seen the picture at the top of your column and you're really not pretty. And then you've got it wrong about the cosmetics company. She's actually doing a cosmetics cover for an artificial leg. She's helping people. Do your bloody research.'"
Did it do any good? I had a right go and I felt better. I rang a few of them that week. They got pissed off with me. One of them wrote, [whimpers] "He harangued me for an hour!" I thought, "You deserve hanging, not haranguing."
Is it Yoko syndrome? The same thing. Yoko's a great artist, good woman, loved John, but she got a lot of flak.
How is it for you, being a father in middle age? [Daughter Beatrice was born in 2003] I don't talk about it because Heather and I have agreed to protect our baby's privacy - but it's great!
OK. You've recorded your new album with Radiohead's producer, you played Glastonbury, you've been remixing with [producer/DJ] Freelance Hellraiser. Are you looking for a new audience? Not really. Because of the Beatles 1 and the Back in the World Live albums, all ages come to our shows anyway. Babies get held up to us like, "Here, have a baby!" Glastonbury I'd always wanted to do and I was very chuffed when the moment arrived. Rocking in wellies. The flags reminded me of Henry V. Agincourt. A medieval battlefield. Magic. I went back to Liverpool shortly after and it was all, "Hey, Macca! Great! Saw you on the telly."
Did you go after Nigel Godrich? George Martin recommended him. I rang Nigel, we met, and he said, "All I want to do is make an album that's true to you." That simple statement meant a lot to me. I told him, "I'm going to make a good record. Not, I want to make a good record."
Implying you've let yourself down in the past? [Laughs] Sounds like my cousin Ted Robbins' drunk routine. He's a comedian, been on Phoenix Nights [as rival nightclub owner Den Perry], [Maudlin moan] "I've let meself down, I've let you down, I've let everyone down." Then he sings My Way. Yeah, some of my albums, I can't believe what I was...on. [1986's] Press to Play, I read the tracklist and I think, "Wonder how that song goes?"
You dropped your band from the album. What was that about? That was really Nigel's call. He started saying, "You're in a safety zone with these guys, complacent." He said I should play most of the instruments. He said, "You can blame me if you want."
So you did. So I did? No, I explained it and the guys were all cool about it. [They're back for the world tour.]
But you are tough, that's the truth, isn't it? Yeah, you've gotten me. There were some tense moments making the album. Nigel wasn't syncophantic, he said from the off, "I know what I like." There were some heated discussions. There's a song called Riding to Vanity Fair where we got down to it, [angrily] "I like it!", "I don't like it!", "Well, I like it!" But then I realized there's not point in charging him down like that, I should listen. We actually moved on to why he didn't like it - "The first line's good, after that..." "Oh, how about this then?"
It was emotional making that track. We kept at it. Slaved on it. Forced it to work.
Riding to Vanity Fair is about the difficulties of friendship and I'm wondering whether those lines, "We sang along/When all the songs were sung/Believing every line" were about John and George. Welll...All my mates, really. Everyone I sang along with. Listening to Carl Perkins with John and George. And a school friend called Ian James. I hung out a lot with him, trying to pull the same girls. Unsuccessfully. Your life revolved around listening to records and the thrill was sharing it with people who knew what you meant when you said, "Gene Vincent!" or "Eddie Cochran!"
Some songs on the new album sound very personal. How Kind of You seems to be about Linda's death - lyrics such as "I won't forget how unafraid you were that long, dark night." It wasn't in my mind. After Linda died, a lot of people related everything I said to that, but most of my songs are not that specific.
Is that a strange sensation, people interpreting your songs as "confessional" and thinking they know about you? It's always happened. The first time I realized how people take their own meanings from what you write was in 1963 when I went back to Liverpool. I was round at Rory Storm's mum Vi's house [Rory Storm and the Hurricanes was Ringo's band before the Beatles]. I played From Me to You to her, [sings] "If there's anything that you want..." She was like [acts out deeply moved, open-mouthed, amazed]. She said, "Aah, I didn't know you could think like that." I was like, "It's just a song." But it hit an emotional nerve, I don't know what, she didn't say, but it made me realize something about the power of songs.
Does all that mean you hold back on your deepest emotions when you write? I don't think so. The feelings are all in there. But, for instance, I wrote a song called Here Today for John [on 1982's Tug of War] and that could have been very, "When I met John it was at Woolton village fete." A specific story. But I thought, "What would you say if you were here today?" It's not that I'm trying to hide anything.
I was talking about lyrics with [Bee Gee] Robin Gibb and he said, "Sometimes you say any old words, you talk gobbledegook, just to make something happen in the world that wasn't there two minutes ago." Often you think, "That's nonsense." Sometimes it's, "Oh, I see." The day after I'd written Hey Jude I was sitting at the piano at my house in London showing it to John and Yoko. When I got to "the movement you need is on your shoulder," I spun around and said, [disgusted] "I'm changing that!" John said, "You're not! It's the best ling in the bloody song."
To go back to Here Today, that actually is quite specific. It's about you and John and it's pretty emotional. Those lines, "What about the night we cried?/Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside." What were you remembering? Mmm. The Beatles were under a lot of pressure, touring all the time, and we didn't have any release. The night we were flying to Jacksonville, Florida [9 September 1964], but to avoid a hurrican we had to put down in Key West, which at that time was the end of nowhere, like in the Humphrey Bogart move [Key Largo]. We stayed up all night drinking, all of us together, chatting about everything, and there came a moment where we, um, cried. Which we'd never done. I'm not sure, but the likely explanation is that John and I had both lost our mothers - mine died of breast cancer, John's in a road accident - and it always been a sort of unspoken bond between us. Knowing that we had both been throught that grief and horror. That night we finally got round to talking about it.
In terms of the heritage that you and John created, you've done a couple of things that upset people in the last year or so. Yeah. The names thing and...what else are you thinking of?
Some people saw the Let it Be...Naked version as anti-John. Never. We talked about it at the time. We had a copy. We agreed that the ...Naked version was better. It's so John. You can't tell me that he would have loved soaring string and ladies' voices going [contralto wail] "Woooo!" I'm putting words into his mouth, but I...certainly knew him better than a lot of people. Anyway, the famous changing the order of the names...
...Looked like resentment? Well, it wasn't. When I try to explain it, it gets blown out of proportion again so I can't be bothered. [ponders, teeters] But I will fucking try to explain it again. In the Beatles Anthology CD booklet the lyrics to Yesterday had a picture of John above them and the credit was, "Written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney." When it's "Lennon-McCartney" I don't have a problem, it's a logo. I merely asked if, on that one occasion when we were using the full names, it could say, "Written by Paul McCartney and John Lennon." And I was rebuffed.
By? You guess. So that became a bit of a bone of contention with me - and a complete misconception that I was trying to walk on a dead man's grave, ruin his credit. Now I think I'll be trying to explain that forever. So, now I could not care less about where my effing name is! No worry to me at all. Just so everybody knows, I'm off that one.
But don't get it wrong. I was one of the most important people in John's life and he was one of the most important people in my life. I'm the only person who wrote that body of work with him, who was in the room with him and I...For something tiny like this to cloud that is ridiculous. I love him and always will.
After everything you've been through, what drives you now? What are you seacrhing for? Mmm. I don't think I ever have been a searcher. I take things as they come. I'll tell you what sums it up to me. The son of a friend of ours was asked how he felt on his birthday and he said, "Like I'm walking along the same street, but in new shoes." That's how I feel about it all. I hope to continue walking in new shoes.
"Sorry, gotta go, need a pee," he says standing, shaking hands, making for the door. But then he pauses at his Wurlitzer jukebox, hits a button, and after a couple of chinks a 45 slaps down. Elvis enquires, "A-well-a bless my soul, a-what's a-wrong with me?" and McCartney starts to jiggle with all of his might, grinning like a boy. Just for ten seconds that is, then the working day resumes.
The following week, McCartney calls to tie up loose ends. He's being driven through the streets of Liverpool on the way from conducting a songwriting masterclass at the Institute for the Performing Arts - his, and George Harrison's, old school which he rescued from dereliction - to John Lennon Airport. And he's just passed 20 Forthlin Road, the terraced house where he lived in from 1955-63, now owned by the National Trust.
"It's strange," he says. "I was just saying, Oh, my old girlfriend lived there, I used to trim that hedge...I've never been back to the house and I'm not sure I could - a museum I used to live in?"
He's arrived at John Lennon. The motto painted on the roof reads, "Above us only sky." He says he's got to go, but doesn't quite yet.
"After we talked the other day, I was thinking, I just wish I was able to analyze what I do and not play down all these things in my life that go into it and say what songwriting means to me. But I find it very hard to put into words. I can't."
His tour of America is provoking 'Maccamania', he's about to marry the woman he loves, and his favourite gallery is putting on an exhibition of his painting. So why is Paul McCartney so riddled with insecurities? Nigel Farndale finds out The soundcheck over, Paul McCartney - he rarely uses the Sir - stares out across the empty seats of the ice-hockey stadium, eyebrows raised in that way of his, lost in thought. In two and a half hours these chairs will be filled with Americans waving the Stars and Stripes; holding up lighters; crying, singing, hyperventilating; greeting the latest concert of his 19-city tour with what the press have been calling 'Maccamania'. He hands his guitar to a roadie and picks up his jacket, flipping it over his left shoulder in the same movement. Taking the stairs two at a time, he steps down off the stage and greets me with a cold, dry handshake. 'Art,' he says bluntly. 'You're here to talk about art, right?' 'Here' is Long Island, New York, and it's news to me that I've flown all this way just to talk about his paintings. 'Among other things,' I answer, trying not to show the alarm in my eyes. What about the juicy stuff? His children's feelings about his marriage in a few weeks' time to a former swimwear model who lost a leg and became a charity ampaigner? His bitter feud with a dead man, John Lennon? What about George? Linda? And, of course, what about the Beatles, a band 'bigger than Jesus' that broke up more than 30 years ago and yet still sells as many records each year as it ever did, a billion at the last count? At least he didn't add 'and poetry and classical music', the other art forms in which he has taken to dabbling. As he leads the way along a corridor, a crowd - road crew, hangers-on - mills around him briefly, jostling for position like petitioners in a Tudor court. When we pass through a door at the end, their progress is blocked by a security guard and I notice Paul McCartney's walk: it is loose, swaying, almost a swagger. He will be 60 next month but, apart from a few crow's feet around his bovine-big eyes and an interesting chestnut tint to his hair, he shows little sign of it. 'I think someone must have falsified my birth certificate,' he says, his flat Liverpudlian vowels softened by 30 years of marriage to an American. 'Joke! It's just I feel as youthful as I've ever felt. And pretty fit. I used to have to wring out my shirts after shows. Now I hardly sweat at all.' He is indeed looking lithe, tanned and moisture-free - and a little shorter than I'd imagined. I've read that he is 5ft 11in; but we all remember that conspiracy theory about how he died in a car crash in 1966 and was replaced by a taller double, only to give the game away by walking barefoot - a Sicilian symbol of death - on the zebra-crossing outside the Abbey Road studios. Backstage we sit on sofas in an ashram-like room draped with black curtains, lit by candles, heavy with the smell of joss sticks. McCartney scoops up a handful of nuts from the coffee-table. 'Excuse me if I eat these while we talk,' he says between crunches. 'I usually nibble at this time before a concert.' We have an hour before he has to change for the show - less if he feels the talking is putting a strain on that golden voice of his. Alongside the bowl of nuts are copies of the Sun and the Daily Mail, just arrived from England. Both carry full-page features about how, after 11 September, Americans are saying McCartney is 'healing' them, just as the Beatles did in 1964 after Kennedy's assassination. Healing, Paul? Healing? 'I know! I know!' McCartney says, the puffy curves of his lips smoothing out into a grin. 'Better than bad reviews, I guess. Actually, I don't read them, because they have an effect on me: I either think I'm too great or I get paranoid.' The glowing reviews in the American press may have something to do with the fact that he has not toured for a decade; also that the show includes 21 Beatles songs; in the past McCartney has refused to play more than one or two of them at his concerts. 'I used to get pissed off when people called me "ex-Beatle Paul McCartney",' he says, tossing another handful of nuts into his mouth. 'Now I'm more comfortable with it.' He chews and swallows. 'JFK had died a few months before the Beatles' first tour and there was a sense then of America wanting to get back
to normal after a world-shocking event. The same is happening now, though I feel more connected with it this time because I was in New York when the terrorist
attack happened.'
Entering into the spirit of the thing, I ask if this tour is also about 'healing' Paul McCartney - after all, he has said that he 'cried for a year' when his wife, Linda, died of breast cancer in 1998. 'Yes, there is a lot of that for me. And I have a new woman in my life who I'm going to marry, so that's part of that, too. Heather has made me feel more at ease with things. After two full years of horror and doctor's offices and scares and diagnoses. . .' He trails off. 'In truth when you have been through that and come out at
the end. . .' He trails off again. 'I'm grateful not to have to spend my days
doing that any more. And I'm lucky to have found a good woman who is strong like Linda, and beautiful and positive and funny.'
He found it odd dating again after so many years of marriage and he felt guilty, too, but soon rationalised that it would be what Linda wanted. With the 33-year-old Heather Mills, he tells me, it was 'big attraction at first sight'. Then, 'I really started to fancy her.' The marriage will take place at his home in the Hamptons, near New York, on 6 June, three days after he performs at The Queen's Golden Jubilee concert at Buckingham Palace. His daughter Stella, a celebrated fashion designer, won't be designing the wedding dress. And there are rumours that his other children - Mary, James and, from Linda's first marriage, Heather - are not wildly enthusiastic about
the union either. 'I think a second marriage is hard for the children,' McCartney says, nodding gravely. 'No matter who it is: people in my position are told not to worry, that time will heal. But it's very difficult. It's difficult for all of us. They find it difficult to think of me with another woman. But it's how it is and how it must be, and I think that, more than anything, they want me to be happy - and this is what makes me happy.'
It's a steely remark, as cold and dry as his handshake. McCartney once said, 'I'm not really tough. I'm not really loveable either.' He was half-right. You don't stay at the top for as long as he has without being pretty tough and single-minded. His comment about how his children will just have to lump it seems to reflect this, as do his thoughts about his reaction to George Harrison's death last November. Looking distraught, McCartney went before the cameras to pay tribute to his 'baby brother'. Was he wanting to make amends for the flippant comment he made in 1980 when John Lennon was shot? 'It was definitely to do with that, yeah. I was conscious of that. I was just
as distraught when John died, probably more so because it was a shocking murder. I knew George was going to die.
I'd seen him and I knew. He had terminal cancer. . .' He shakes his head at the memory. 'But you're right. When John died I didn't know whether to stay at home and hide or go to work. I decided to go to work, as did George Martin, and at the studio we talked about John and cried and when I was leaving that night, in the dark, in the London traffic, I had the window slightly open and someone pushed a microphone in and asked me what I thought about John dying. I said, "It's a drag." I couldn't think of anything else to say. And, in print, it looked so heartless. When I saw it written down I thought, "Jesus Christ."'
It was not just in print. He said it with a shrug, as if in an attempt to be cool. And the callousness of the comment seemed to confirm what many suspected McCartney really felt about Lennon. When the Beatles broke up in 1970 the world blamed Yoko Ono. But John, George and Ringo blamed Paul, partly because he had, they thought, become too bossy, partly because he refused to work with the band's sinister new manager Allen Klein (later imprisoned for tax fraud), partly because he was the first to tell the press - much to the annoyance of John Lennon, who had already told the others in private that he was planning to leave the band and wanted to break the news himself.
Feeling angry, unemployed and bewildered, McCartney retreated to his farm on the Mull of Kintyre, grew a beard, drank too much and had what he later described as a nervous breakdown. Eventually he recovered his composure, became a vegetarian, sued the Beatles, recorded the gorgeous 'Maybe I'm Amazed', formed Wings - with Linda on keyboards and vocals, much to everyone's amusement - and had a long run of chart-topping singles and albums. He also wrote 'The Frog Chorus'.
Lennon, meanwhile, moved to New York, became a junkie and revealed himself to
be the borderline psychopath many had always suspected him of being. He embarked on a hate-campaign against McCartney, comparing his former partner to the cabaret artiste Engelbert Humperdinck. McCartney would try to patch things up and have 'very frightening phone calls' with Lennon which always ended with one telling the other to 'fuck off' before slamming the phone down. In 1976 Lennon said of McCartney: 'He visits me every time he's in New York, like all the other rock 'n' roll creeps.' McCartney felt hurt, not least because, as he said in 1987, 'I always idolised [John]. We always did, the group. I don't know if the others will tell you that, but he was our idol.'
If George was his baby brother, was John his big brother? McCartney smiles, causing crinkles to arc downwards from his hazel eyes. 'Yes, definitely, although not in the Orwellian sense. John was older than me and, in the good sense of the phrase, he was a big brother. He was a lovely guy. But we were very competitive. Looking back on it, I think it's. . .' He purses his lips. 'It's awkward. You don't always say to people what you mean to say to them when they are alive. And with John, we had a guy relationship, loving each other without saying it. We never looked at each other and said, "I love you," but people would ask us, "What do you think of the rest of the Beatles?" and we would say, "I love them." So we knew indirectly, peripherally.' He rubs his hands together to brush off some crumbs. 'We were brothers. Family. Like an Irish family. It's not unusual to get brothers fighting, but we did it in the spotlight - everyone got to look at the O'Malleys arguing. We gave and took a few good blows. But with John, we made it up by the time he died and I was very thankful for that. We were talking normally about baking bread. And cats - he was a cat man. He would talk about going round his apartment in his "robe" as he called it by then, dressing-gown to us. So, ordinary stuff.'
But there's more to it than that. For years now Lennon's role in the Beatles has been talked up and McCartney's down. Lennon is portrayed as being deep and cool, McCartney shallow and cheesy. Yoko Ono has played a large part in this. Most witheringly she said four years ago, 'John was the visionary and that is why the Beatles happened. Paul is put into the position of being a Salieri to a Mozart.' McCartney has been trying to counter this, to make his version of the Beatles story the official one, most notably in an authorised biography, Many Years From Now by Barry Miles. He wants it to be known, for instance, that he, not Lennon, was the one who introduced the Beatles to Stockhausen and the avant garde.
Does he feel he has finally set the records straight? 'I became more comfortable that my contribution was being recognised, yes. And George's. Sad
that he had to pass away before people really saw it. . . There was a re-writing of history after John's death. There was revisionism. Certain people were trying to write me out of the Beatles' history, as well as the other two. George was reduced to the guy standing with his plectrum in his hand, waiting for a solo and, as John would have been the first to admit, George was very much more important than that, as a character, as a musician. And Ringo is now being sidelined because he wasn't a composer. We all needed each other. We were four corners of a square. There were people close to John, saying, "Well, Paul just booked the studio," - which was galling. The trouble is', he
says, scooping up another handful of peanuts and speaking indistinctly through them, 'I became worried that the John legend would totally wipe out any of our contributions. I'm sure I got paranoid about it, but, hey, that's normal for me.'
Such was McCartney's paranoia he even tried to have the Beatles songs he wrote retrospectively credited to McCartney-Lennon (as oppose to Lennon-McCartney, a brand as revered as Gilbert and Sullivan, or Rodgers and Hammerstein). Yoko Ono, who inherited Lennon's estate, refused to give permission for this. 'I didn't want to remove John,' McCartney tells me, 'just change the order round. I don't mind Lennon-McCartney as a logo. John in front, that's OK, but on the Anthology (1996), they started saying "Yesterday" [a tune that
came to McCartney in a dream] by John Lennon and Paul McCartney and I said, "Please can it be Paul McCartney and John Lennon for the sake of the Trade Description Act? Because John had no hand in that particular song."' He jiggles his knee up and down in agitation. 'I recently went to a hotel where there was a songbook and I looked up "Hey Jude" [another McCartney song] and it was credited to John Lennon. My name had been left off because there was no space for it on the page. Do I sound obsessive?'
Just a bit. Everyone knows who wrote which Lennon-McCartney composition because the songwriter always took the lead vocals. And he's Paul McCartney, for goodness sake. His boyhood home has been preserved for the nation by the National Trust. According to the Guinness Book of Records, he's the most successful songwriter in history. Bigger than Elvis. Bigger even than John, now. How can he possibly feel insecure about his reputation?
'I know! That's what people say to me. Because I'm fucking human. And humans are insecure. Show me one who isn't. Henry Kissinger? Insecure. George Bush? Insecure. Bill Clinton? Very insecure.' It's a curious crew to compare yourself to - the model for Dr Strangelove, a Texan to whom English is a second language, a philanderer - but perhaps it makes sense in light of something McCartney said at the height of Lennon's war of words: 'John captured me so well. I'm a turd. I'm just nothing.'
Improbable though it may seem, Paul McCartney appears to have suffered periodically from low self-esteem. Linda McCartney once said, 'I don't dwell on what people say about me. I dwell on what people say about Paul, for some reason. Maybe it's because he can't handle it.' For all his chirpy optimism, mannered blokiness and double thumbs-up gestures, he is, it seems, prickly about his reputation. As Private Eye discovered when he reacted with cold fury to the inclusion of one of his poems in Pseud's Corner recently, he takes himself very seriously. His 'fucking human' comment is intriguing in another respect: it suggests that, in his professional life at least, he suffers from Paradise syndrome: having a perfect life he needs to find something to feel anxious about. It's not enough that he's credited jointly with writing the soundtrack to our lives, he wants his name to come first. It
won't suffice that, since he was 20, millions of his fans have been calling him a genius - he needed to hear it from his 'big brother', his musical equal, his idol, John Lennon.
But you can't help feeling that he should be, that he can afford to be, a bigger man. He shouldn't rise to Yoko Ono's bait. It looks so petty. Worse than that, his attempts to control not only the Beatles' history but also their mythology have come across as boastful, petulant and self-serving. Perhaps it is just that, for all his gifts as a lyricist, he frequently expresses himself badly in conversation, often hitting the wrong note, not saying what he means. His mother died when he was aged 14: his first response? 'What are we going to do for money now?' He has regretted that line all his life. Even his heartfelt tribute to his 'baby brother' George seems a little patronising
and ill-considered. He must have known that Harrison always hated being thought of as the baby of the band, not least because when the Beatles first formed Lennon used to refer to 'that bloody kid hanging around' - and Harrison, long after the Beatles broke up, said he thought that was how Lennon still regarded him.
Perhaps McCartney's insecurities only seem undignified - even indecent - because in so many other ways he is such a dignified, decent man. He pays his
taxes, he doesn't wear leather shoes on principle, he sent his children to the local comp, he was faithful to his wife for 30 years (something almost unheard of in the priapic world of rockstardom), he does his own shopping at Selfridges, he travels on the Underground. The superstar next door image he has tried to cultivate may seem like a tragic affectation given that he is worth 713 million, but at least he tries.
'You said I have this thing about wanting to be seen as an ordinary man: well, I'm sorry but I am,' he tells me. 'It's just too bad - I can't be anything other. I'm a lucky ordinary guy, it's true. I've done a lot of things and fulfilled a lot of my dreams, but it doesn't mean. . .' He smiles ruefully. 'I assumed, like you, that when I met someone who had done well that they would be saintly and just say, "Thanks, I know I am OK now." But it
doesn't work like that.' Yet, to the outside world, he seems so positive and well-adjusted. 'Yeah, but my worst fear is being found out. . . I don't want to elevate any higher than I am now. Sir Paul McCartney is as elevated as I ever wish to go - in fact, it is a little too high. It was a great honour and
all that but. . . I need the people around me to know I am still the same and
I want to feel the same, because I like who I am. A bit insecure. So I don't go, "Fuck you! How dare you tell me that. I'm better than you." It would be easy to do but I don't want to get like that. Know why? Because I'm working-class [his father was a cotton salesman, his mother a nurse, and he grew up on a council estate]. If I got like that now, people, the crew out there, would be doing this [he flicks the V-sign] behind my back as I walk past.'
He checks his watch pointedly. 'Now,' he says. 'the Walker Gallery, Liverpool.' There is an exhibition catalogue for it on the coffee-table and as we flick through the paintings - bold colouring, some abstract, some figurative - I nod approvingly. Pretty disturbing, though, some of them. 'Oh.
Yeah, a lady friend once walked through my studio and said, "Paul, what would
a psychiatrist make of all this?" Here,' he says stopping at one. 'It's red, so I suppose you could say "demonic, red, hell," but I just like red. In the Rorschach test, some people see a butterfly, some see a devil. You are supposed to betray yourself in painting. But that's OK. I don't try and hide anything about myself.' He turns to a warmer image. 'These beach paintings aren't disturbing, though. That was just a memory. Shark on Georgica is somewhere I used to sail. I knocked the paint pot and a shark appeared. I like that accident. Perhaps it betrays some hidden fears.'
Freud said there are no accidents. 'Exactly.' He flicks on a few more pages. 'The curator picked this one out and says it's very sexual. I'm not sure what
he means but I'll go along with that. That could be phallic.' He gives a thin
laugh and moves the page round to view the painting from a different angle. 'When I was a kid I used to draw nude women and feel guilty. Now when I look at nudes in photographs and paintings I don't giggle. I had to get over that block, get over the smutty stage. I started painting seriously when
I was 40, when I had children, and that was when I got over it. To have babies we do have to do certain things. . . Here's a nude of Linda. Why not? I was married to this woman for 30 years.'
Has he painted any of Linda since she died? 'No, I haven't painted too much in the past couple of years. Well, I've done one or two and they are a bit disturbing. But they would be, wouldn't they? I was disturbed.'
He grieved properly for Linda, he says, something he didn't do when his mother died from breast cancer. 'I certainly didn't grieve enough for my mother. There was no such thing as a psychiatrist when I lost her. You kidding? I was a 14-year-old Liverpool boy. I wouldn't have had access to one
and I do now. I saw one when Linda died and he said, "A good way to grieve is
to cry one day and not cry the next, alternate days so as you don't go down one tunnel." I took his advice.'
McCartney has said that in the months following Linda's death he thought he might die from grief; did he mean he considered taking his own life? "No. I was very sad. In deep grief. But never suicidal. I'm too positive for that. After a year. . . It was as if the seasons had to go right through, as if I had to feel like a plant. A couple of months after the end of that cycle I began to realise I was also having other feelings, that I was emerging. . .'
That all you need is love? 'Mmm. I am a romantic. I like Fred Astaire.' Me, too, I interject. 'That's good,' he says. 'Now I feel I can open up to you. I
always say to young guys, "Be romantic," because not only do women love it but you'll love it, too. English men are so reserved, though. The idea of being caught with flowers on the bus! You hide them under your jacket.' He mimes hiding a bunch and looking nervous. 'Well, I'm not like that any more.'
McCartney looks at his watch again. Nearly time to go to his dressing room. Presumably the big difference between touring America in 2002 and 1964 is the
seats; audiences today don't wet them quite as much.
'I think the main differences is the age range of the audience,' he says with
an easy laugh. 'The Beatles audience was essentially our age or younger, a lot of screaming girls. Now the audience is layered: people the age I am now,
but also their children and grandchildren. They were holding up babies the other night, which was like, What?'
I say I imagine people bring their babies along because they want them to have a stake in history - like watching the Queen Mother's funeral procession. 'Yeah, there's probably something in that. People want to be able
to say, "I was there."'
Later I make my way upstairs to take my seat for the concert. The excitement of the crowd is palpable and infectious. And when a giant silhouette of Paul McCartney's violin-shaped Hofner bass appears on a screen on the stage, everyone goes nuts. The screen lifts, the crisp, heavy, opening bars of the Beatles song 'Hello, Goodbye' are heard, and thousands of hairs on the backs of thousands of necks stand on end, mine included.
McCartney on the record about ticket prices, drugs and Harrison --------------------
By Greg Kot Tribune rock critic
April 10, 2002
Paul McCartney arrives in Chicago for two shows Wednesday and Thursday at the United Center riding a wave of good will.
The death of his wife, Linda, in 1998 was a tragedy he handled with grace and dignity, and endeared the former Beatles bassist to the public all over again. His re-emergence in recent months with a new solo album, "Driving Rain," and a new love, his fiance Heather Mills, has brought him back into the public spotlight. His frequent public appearances in New York last autumn, in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, made him something of a beacon for the embattled city. And now he's on his first tour in nine years, with 20 concerts in 19 North American cities. Fourteen of those shows sold out within a half-hour, even though ticket prices range from $50 to $250, plus service fees.
McCartney, 59, has always been a forthright interview subject, cheerfully immune to criticism because, after all, he's a Beatle! But in a phone interview with the Tribune, as he dealt with questions about the death of his old bandmate George Harrison; his relationship with John Lennon's widow, Yoko Ono; his drug use during the Beatles most creative period; and those unbelievable ticket prices, he sounded particularly candid.
Q. Did George Harrison's death have any impetus in getting you back on the road?
A. It didn't, actually. We were getting ready to tour around the time the album came out [last fall], but then 9-11 happened. So instead of going back to Europe and rehearsing for some gigs that we were going to do, that turned into the Madison Square Garden concert [a benefit for the New York City firefighters], which was the only appropriate thing to do. It was dipping my toe in the water, to see if after all this while, I still enjoyed it, and sure enough I did. It was a great show to do. So we decided to go out for real. Unfortunately during the buildup to that, George died. I suppose in some ways when you lose someone important who you love, it reminds you to get on with your life and enjoy it, because it doesn't last forever.
Q. Speculation has already started that this could be the last tour you'll do. Is rock 'n' roll the kind of career that demands early retirement?
A. I really don't think so. And maybe I should. But it's just not in my personality to think of things like that. I'm not a worrier. I just look at how I feel. And if I feel good, I think, yeah, that's what I do. You're as cool as you feel, and I feel good, surprisingly good, physically and otherwise.
Q. Why are your tickets so expensive?
A. I understand that's what you charge for these shows. I always say to my promoter: What does Madonna charge? Ding! What does Elton [John] charge? Ding! What does U2 charge? Ding! And they always give me the ballpark figure. And that's what I charge. I try to get it on the cheap side. This ain't Streisand. We're not trying to take advantage. I hate to tell you, but I thought tickets were still at about $40. But I'm from the prehistoric ages. I just let the promoters do that. I say what do things cost, and they tell me, and I'm always shocked. Is the suggestion that I should do it for free?
Q. No, but 40 bucks sounds like a reasonable figure. Do you need the money?
A. I suppose I do already have a lot of money. But these promoters have a living to make. And you know what, I really don't mind earning money. I never have and I never will. I'm just an ordinary guy. It's our capitalist ethic, and I really don't have a problem with it.
Q. A few years ago, your old friend and producer George Martin came through town and gave a presentation on the making of "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band." He flatly denied that the Beatles used drugs while making that album.
A. George said that? Aww, noooo. George is sweet, but . . . I love it, don't you love that generation? So sweet. I think he's being very defensive and non-litigious, but it's not true. Those were the times. I don't defend or attack them, it's just how it was. It's like saying the soldiers didn't sleep with girls before they went off to World War II. We all know they did. And so did we. George is a hip guy, but he doesn't want to let you naughty journalists know we did naughty things. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, [the drug use] wasn't in his face. He was a grownup and you didn't do that sort of thing in front of the grownups.
Q. Are you disappointed that radio didn't embrace your last record?
A. It was a bit of a mystery to me. I thought it was a good record. I still think so. Programming has gotten pretty strict. Not many people are allowed to play stuff that doesn't hit an exact groove. People are making mechanical records to fit exact slots. A lot of boy band stuff isn't made by boys, it's made by commercial men who know exactly what slot it has to fit in. Mine fell between the cracks. It was a record made because I wanted to do it. I'm not just easy listening, or country or rock. I think I have my own category, and that becomes difficult when radio is so formatted. I certainly wouldn't want to do formula records. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a boy band. Well, actually, I am in a boy band.
Q. Yeah. Except you play your instruments and don't lip-sync.
A. [Laughs] Yes, you almost have to apologize these days for singing live and playing your own instruments. And they say they're dancing so they can't sing live too. But Fred Astaire danced and sang. Chorus girls did too. Were they fitter? The answer is a mystery. If I was in the audience I'd feel a bit cheated if my man wasn't singing.
Q. When the tour gets to New York, will you invite Yoko to the show?
A. I don't know. I have no idea. We're not massive friends. We're not friends, man. Everyone has a family, and sometimes your Uncle Eddie is not your greatest friend. It's like that with us. Things have gone down in the past for that to happen. I don't hold a grudge. I must say, I don't intend to invite her. I don't mean it as a snub. You invite who you wanna have there. That's what you do in life, man. We've been talking about how life is short, and if I throw a party, I just invite who I wanna have there. It's as simple as that. I don't mean any harm to anyone. You invite people you're gonna have a laugh with. We're not enemies. We're just not the greatest of buddies.
The busy Beatle Wed Apr 3, 6:10 AM ET Edna Gundersen USA TODAY
LOS ANGELES -- He's a real everywhere man.
Last year, Paul McCartney published poetry tome Blackbird Singing, released the retrospective Wingspan CD set and documentary, recorded new album Driving Rain, penned 9/11 anthem Freedom and helped raise $30 million for terror victims by spearheading The Concert for New York City all-star show and album. His profile exploded in 2002 with globe-circling appearances on the Super Bowl and Oscar telecasts.
''Now we're only playing audiences of a billion or more,'' he quips. So where does a knighted ex-Beatle go to surpass himself?
''Oakland,'' he says matter-of-factly.
The punch line isn't really incongruous. On Monday, McCartney, 59, took the stage in the Bay Area city to launch his 19-city Driving USA tour, the season's hottest ticket. About 200,000 ducats to 14 shows sold out in under a half-hour. The fact that fans are coughing up $50 to $250 ($125 to $350 in Las Vegas) to catch McCartney's unembellished production contradicts conventional wisdom in the ailing pop market. He's determined to prove a musician can sell out an arena and not sell out his art.
''People like me and Neil Young and Bob Dylan and even U2, we're from a time you just played live, and the idea of playing with tapes is something you'd never consider,'' he says. ''Today, the excuse is, 'Well, we've got to dance a lot. We're out of breath, so we can't sing.' Well, Fred Astaire could. Time it so you can do both.
''I suppose if I had a real aggressive modern manager, he might say, 'Paul, come on, we'll get a bunch of girls and guys, they can all dance, you can look real cute and be wheeled out on a podium, do some nice numbers with an orchestra.' It's not my thing. However, I am thinking of wearing just the boxer shorts on stage. No choreography, just me standing there. Then I whip them off during the second number. I think we can make some headlines.''
That won't be necessary. McCartney believes there's a place for his unadorned pop tunes, even in this age of ''synthetic music, boy bands and a lot of girls not wearing much.'' He has loosely structured a set list that spans his career from The Beatles (All My Loving, Back in the U.S.S.R.) to Wings (Jet) to solo flights (Maybe I'm Amazed and four cuts from Driving Rain).
Days before the tour kickoff, he's casually rehearsing in a cavernous soundstage at Sony Studios with guitarist Rusty Anderson and drummer Abe Laboriel Jr. (both on Rain), plus newly adopted guitarist/bassist Brian Ray and veteran Paul ''Wix'' Wickens, the keyboardist on McCartney's '90 and '93 outings.
After they zip through a bouncy version of Driving Rain, McCartney, clad in a tan T-shirt and olive pants, stands alone at the microphone to sing Blackbird, Mother Nature's Son and We Can Work It Out. (''Was this written after an argument? You tell me,'' he queries a tiny assembly of crewmembers and visitors.) The band returns for an acoustic reading of Vanilla Sky. Run-throughs have been kept to a minimum to ensure room for spontaneity.
''If we make a mistake, you'll hear it!'' he promises during a break in his trailer. Plopping onto a sofa, McCartney kicks off his sneakers, removes his watch and digs into a vegetarian lunch of salad and sliced spring rolls. Loudly munching carrot sticks, he glances at the tape recorder and says apologetically, ''I hope you'll be able to understand this later.''
Despite a nine-year break from the road, McCartney is remarkably relaxed about this stage comeback, particularly in light of critically acclaimed Rain's drizzle at cash registers. The album, no longer in Billboard's top 200, sold 2,700 copies last week for a 19-week total of 322,000. By contrast, the Beatles 1 hits disc, at No. 148 after 71 weeks, sold 8,800 copies last week for a U.S. take of 8.1 million (23 million worldwide).
''You never know if people are going to like a record,'' he says. ''I like the record a lot. I was enjoying playing it, really loving it. Then it came out, and it didn't scream to No. 1. It didn't even dash to No. 1. It was pretty disappointing.
''But you can't go and cry. You just think, 'What happened?' I have no idea. The record company (Capitol) was in a bit of disarray. They chose a first single (From a Lover to a Friend) I wouldn't have chosen.''
McCartney, worth an estimated $2 billion, says he's not hitting the road for money. Nor is he capitulating to label pressure.
''Record companies like you to tour,'' he concedes. ''That's probably why I didn't do it sooner. I don't like to be told what to do.''
He isn't bored creatively (his painting exhibit opens next month in a Liverpool gallery) or professionally. He's plenty busy with projects both imagined (an oft-discussed but unplanned Beatles 1 sequel) and real. He's especially excited about a budding Let It Be reissue. ''We're cleaning up the film and going back to the original tape, before (producer) Phil Spector got hold of it,'' he says.
A gratifying personal life competes with a harried work agenda. He's no longer seeking to fill a void left by wife Linda's death in 1998. In June, he's expected to marry former model Heather Mills, an activist who lost her leg in a motorcycle accident and now promotes land-mine bans.
''I'm very lucky to have found a great woman,'' he says. ''I wondered after Linda whether I would.''
So why complicate an idyllic romance with a demanding tour?
''For my own fun,'' he says.
Delighted but not surprised by the rush for tickets, he adds, ''I'm not blasé. I never know whether people will want to see me. But I think people will like the fact that this show's very live. I'm taking that a bit further, daring to do stuff totally alone, just me and a guitar and 15,000 people. That will be a little nerve-racking, because I've never done it before. I don't play safe. I sometimes wish I would so it would be a bit easier. I think of Elvis in Vegas with 36 musicians -- you can walk off, and they'll keep playing.''
McCartney prefers to carry that weight himself, even if it means risking bloopers. He recalls a botched Penny Lane at a Paris concert: ''I said, 'Stop, stop, stop! Pardonez-moi. We've made une mistake, but je suis man enough to admit it.' That keeps it interesting.''
After avoiding Beatles tunes early in his solo career, McCartney is embracing his Fab Four legacy. The challenge in culling material from four decades was whittling the list to a two-hour sampler.
''It's a luxury to have too many songs,'' he says. ''At this point, there are a lot of hits, but we're leaving out things like Penny Lane. We discovered in the Beatles days that people like to hear the hits. We do Rock and Roll Music: 'Yay!' Then Can't Buy Me Love: 'YAY!' And here's something completely different: Baby's in Black. They'd all go (limply), 'Yay. Great, not even a B-side.' We had to hold our nerve and (settle for) a quieter round of applause.''
McCartney will undoubtedly encounter louder cheers for two key selections honoring late comrades. He'll perform Here Today, the 1982 Tug of War track penned for John Lennon, and Something, George Harrison's signature.
''It's sad, now that there's only two Beatles left,'' the suddenly somber McCartney says. He won't divulge conversations he and fellow survivor Ringo Starr have shared since Harrison died of cancer on Nov. 29.
''We've talked a few times, just private talk. It's a great sadness for us, as it is for his family and all his friends. It's horrible. But George had a wonderful personal philosophy and always wanted to see his sweet Lord. With that in mind, plus the knowledge that we're all going sometime, it's probably sadder for us than it was for him.''
Shortly before Harrison's death, McCartney paid a visit to his bedside and, for the first time in their long and winding history, clutched his hand. Harrison was frail but in high spirits.
''The last time I saw him, he was laughing and joking, and he wasn't well at all. It's madness, laughing in the face of that. He just had this Liverpool sense of humor.''
McCartney, who rarely utters a gloomy remark that might cloud his perpetually sunny personality, briefly drops his guard.
''Obviously, we know there'll come a point when the Beatles aren't alive,'' he says. ''It will be a sad day, because they were a damn good group. I wanted us all to ride off into the sunset, singing and maybe whistling, George playing a ukulele and John being witty. It just doesn't work out that way.''
Here, George Martin interviews Paul McCartney about songwriting. This article first appeared in George Martin’s book “Making Music” in 1983, which is now deleted and long out of print.
George I'd like to take one of your songs and then talk about the way it started.
Paul Shall we pick one that you know a lot about as well so that you can fill in? ... Ebony and Ivory?
George Now how did that start? What was the thought process - did you think of the tune and then start to think about words - how did you begin?
Paul I was in Scotland and, as can sometimes happen, one good time to write songs is when you're not in a very good mood, It's like a kind of psychiatrist's couch in a way, and often what you do is take your guitar or piano, your musical "crutch", and go off in a room and sort of sulk almost; you sulk to the song. It makes you feel better because you're getting it out. And as I recall, I wasn't feeling that brilliant, so I thought, "oh hell, go and get away," and so I went into a little studio I've got there and I sat at the piano - the Rhodes. With me it's always piano or guitar: that's the only two ways I write; I rarely write in my head, although I do a little bit.
I'd had this title lying around for a while. The whole thing goes back quite a few years, when on TV, or on the radio, I heard Spike Milligan make this analogy with black and white notes on the piano; he'd said, "you know it's a funny kind of thing - black notes, white notes, and you need to play the two to make harmony folks!" He just made a little joke out of it. I thought: "yes, this is a good analogy for harmony between people because if you've just got the black notes you're limited, and if you've just got the whites you're limited; eventually you've got to go into them both. So I was thinking, "if I was going to write a song about that, what might it be called?" And I came up with the idea of ebony and ivory by thinking what are those actual things made of? I don't know if they're actually made of ebony.
George They used to be,- they're not any rnore, just painted wood. They're not ivory either - plastic now,- that's why they don't go yellow!
Paul So I thought ebony and ivory sounds nice. Black is easily associated with ebony; there's a magazine called Ebony. Ivory, I wasn't too keen on us coming from elephant's tusks but I thought, well still . . . it symbolizes it. So I had this little thing, ebony and ivory, so when I sat down in this not particularly good mood, I thought, "0.K., let's see what can we do with it." I then tried to paraphrase Spike's thought. I sat down at the piano, selected a key, and it's the sort of a key you feel like; I felt a bit like E Major that day. I hit the chord E and the tune just came on hearing the chord and messing around a bit; the next chord, F sharp minor, being a natural thing in the E sequence. Ebony and Ivory, and I thought, "well that's quite nice, a little bit of tune started off" and then, "sit together, go together, live together, in perfect harmony - ivory - good that's a nice little rhyme." Side by side on my piano keyboard, I thought, "Yes that's 0.K. because it explains the whole thing about this analogy on the keyboard." Oh Lord why can't we? - I think that got a little bit changed later on. Why won't we? why don't we? It wasn't very exact when I first got it, and that was all I had that day; that's all that came up.
I really liked that, so I stuck it down on a bit of tape and thought that's a good basis for a song. It's a nice chorus and I liked the tune, I liked that little jump of a fourth in the opening phrase, Then, We all know that people are the same wherever we go; that came later. I knew I couldn't just do it with the chorus; I needed a verse and it is often quite hard when you've got this little inspirational thing. Often I find I've said it in those first four lines, and I don't actually want to say any more. If I was being artistically true to myself, I'd make the rest of it instrumental; but you know songwriting - you've got to do better than that. That's where the job set in on that one. Often the second verse has to say it again in a different way and still retain the interest. In fact eventually, you remember, I was going to try and write another verse. We all know that people are the same wherever we go, There is good and bad in everyone etc. In fact I did try, but it wasn't good. It was a repeat, and it wasn't poetic - the words didn't scan nicely. I thought, "no, that's the only verse that really fits with the chorus," so that's why we started to get into modulations and repeated it that second time.
The original idea was that I could sing this with somebody black to further symbolize the whole thing, by having a black man and a white man singing side by side on their piano, because for me it was a message song. My favourite first choice was Stevie Wonder. I'd sing it all through once and he'd sing it all through once, hopefully giving his own interpretation, giving another meaning to the lyrics almost. You remember we did the demo; that was the way I envisaged it. The problem I was talking about before, I had felt with the chorus: I'd almost said it all. Then, when I'd got that verse, I thought well I've really said it all now; there's no way forward unless I try and try and try. I really couldn't get anything I was happy with, so then your modulation became another part of the song.
George Now, I remember how it developed from there: at the studio in Montserrat it was just the two of you - you and Stevie Wonder - really building it from nothing The interesting thing to me is that both of you were multi-talented people and, for me, it was unique to have these two people starting alongside each other and going parallel - you on the real piano and Stevie on the Fender - and gradually we built up from there.
Paul Stevie on drums and me on bass, and I remember it was your idea to keep it just the two of us, because at a certain point we were thinking we might get somebody else in to help with the harmonies or whatever. But we decided no, let's just make it a McCartney-Wonder job.
George And when we came away from Montserrat it was virtually finished except for the backing vocals.
Paul Yes, we'd done it all.
George You put on basic piano, bass, and guitar, and Stevie had done Fender Rhodes, CS80 and Moog synthesizers and drums, and you did the drums on the other one.
Paul We did backing vocals with Stevie and we did our technique of both singing the same line. It was very much a co-thing. It was one of the nice things about talking about the song; the original inspiration being a black fellow and a white fellow, Another very interesting thing I thought about the song at the time is that, when I played the melody on the piano, ebony happened to be two black notes and ivory happened to be all white notes which is something I kept meaning to bring out in video clips, I tried it, but they didn't get it to look right; but that's always very encouraging when you get a bit of magic like that: it's like, ooh He's on our side, it's working for us. And eventually - when you said let's keep it two people, I think it's nicer, it's a better idea, it's more complete that way - I was happy to do that.
So this theme that started just in the writing carried right through to the recording and even crazily enough right through to the video itself. We had those big hang-ups when Stevie couldn't come for the video and it was almost going to be a big wash-out, the whole thing. I rang him and said we're all waiting, and he said he couldn't make it for five days (which was all we had in the schedule), so we did all our video bit in London and he did his bit in L.A. Not the song though: some people have since said to me, "Is it true that you recorded your bit of the song in London, and his bit miles away?" The song itself wasn't done like that; it was a "live" performance.
George Would you say that Ebony and Ivory is fairly typical of the way you write. There isn't a standard way is there?
Paul No, not really. Talking very generally, originally John and I always used to write on guitars, because there wasn't a pianist in The Beatles. There wasn't a piano thing; in fact you used to do nearly all the piano stuff, especially anything that needed fingering - we had to call in the "experts"! So it was nearly all done on guitar and, when we got into piano and stuff, I wrote things like When I'm Sixty-Four. That was possibly the first song I ever wrote on the piano.
George And generally, did the melody come without the words? Or did they come together?
Paul That's where there's no formula.
George A lot of people, even to this day, think that John wrote music and you wrote words or vice versa.
Paul No way.
George Or that you collaborated on songs. I think it is worthwhile to put on record that you used to write your songs individually quite a long way back.
Paul Before we started writing together, we were separate writers. The first thing I ever wrote was a song called I Lost My Little Girl. I was fourteen. It was the guitar chords, G G7 C, and against those falling chords I sang that going up thing, "I woke up late this morning" -
That is quite a nice sort of little early rock'n' roll tune. John, I don't think, had written anything at that time, I first saw him when he was at a Woolton Village Fete; he was on the side show. He was in a checked shirt and had this skiffle group, and he'd got this Del Viking song Come Go With Me which was a big hit then. They obviously hadn't got the record because he didn't have the words; he'd just heard it, picked it up and liked it and he'd written all his own words, "Come go with me to the penitentiary" - kind of skiffley words, folksy words - so he had virtually rewritten the song, I think it was one of his first songwriting efforts. But then, once we'd found this interest in common and thought we'd like to write songs, our major aim was: what will be the next new beat, will it be calypso? This would be the year that Butlin's brought in rock and calypso ballrooms! I was fifteen.
George That must have been about 1957.
Paul And we were taking things like New Musical Express, just as punters - not in a group yet - just on the edges. All the Lonnie Donegan and skiffle and stuff was coming in and getting everyone interested in guitars; and Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry records were around. So we sagged off from school (we were both at school still I think), although John must have just been near to leaving; he was at Quarry Bank School, and I was at another local grammar school, Liverpool Institute High School. We used to sag off to my house nearly always, because my dad went to work and we'd started to look for this new beat. We were trying to think what's it going to be: Latin hasn't been done for a while - Edmundo Ros revisited!, maybe we could get away with this, it's beat-y. (It's funny because now Latin's coming back: Kid Creole, a lot of the Soul Sister stuff. A lot of the young groups think it's the really hip thing.) So we were looking around for this new beat. Was it going to be rock? For the life of us we couldn't find it, so we were just kicking away four-in-the-bar just to make a good old row and keep everyone on the beat for dancing. The ironic thing was, of course, that the minute we stopped trying, we managed to find the new beat which was crazy because that's what we'd spent all our early days trying to do. So John and I wrote a bunch of songs.
George Individually?
Paul No, from then on, I think, we wrote stuff together. I don't think John really wrote much individually. I only had this one song I Lost My Little Girl in which the lyrics were a bit diabolical:
I woke up late this morning My head was in a whirl And only then I realized I lost my little girl Uh huh, uh huh uh Her clothes were not expensive And this is the line that used to make John cringe: Her hair wouldn't always curl I don't know why I loved her But I lost my little girl Uh huh, uh huh uh
At the time I'm talking about we managed to get written about ten or twenty songs, but none of them were really very good. The nearest any of them came to anything was the start of Love Me Do, which was a little bit later, but that was about the nearest I think. There was a song called Just Fun:
We said our love was just fun The day that our friendship begun There's no blue moon that I can see There's never been in history Because our love was just fun
another line we weren't too keen on! We could tell what wasn't good, but we couldn't put the good one in its place,
It was very early days, when we were getting pipes full of Typhoo tea, smoking tea just to be groovy and do something. Anyway, we wrote this bunch of first songs which somehow reached the magic mythical figure of 100. We used to write to people, "We have written approximately 100 songs but we feel we're getting better now", but it was only about twenty, if that! We had all these little songs: Too Bad About Sortows, Just Fun (with little stage directions of oohs and aah like angels); and on every page it had " Lennon-McCartney Original", "Another Lennon- McCartney Original", "Yet Another Lennon-McCartney Original"!
Actually, you've only just reminded me that we obviously thought of ourselves as a writing team; from the word go we kind of liked this Lennon-McCartney thing. I might have been holding out for McCartney-Lennon, 1'm not sure, John was holding out for Lennon-McCartney. I think it was decided it sounded better, so I eventually gave in - yes, Lennon-McCartney rolls off the tongue better. So in this early partnership we were trying to get something done and mainly it was a Buddy Holly kind of influence. For one reason: we knew three chords, A D and E, and all his stuff was in A D and E, so no wonder we were influenced, Eventually I think Love Me Do was probably about the best thing we'd got, and that was when we met you and after that we started Please Please Me. That was a John song really. Please Please Me John had written on his own.
George That was a Roy Orbison-type thing.
Paul And he'd written it real slow, and in fact Roy Orbison should do it that way - slow. It'd be a hit for him. Get him on the phone right now! So that was one of our first good songs, and then From Me To You I remember as our second, and I think by then we were really into it. I wouldn't have said there was any looking back after that.
George I remember you then, because it was like a hothouse plant being forced out and suddenly emerging with flowers all over it!
Paul: With middle eights even!
George It came from being rough and ready people, I mean, songwriting-wise you were getting real classy, you were getting everything tidy and getting really efficient by this tirne.
Paul We were really interested in the idea of being real musicians, and in a way when you think of Lennon and McCartney it's Rodgers and Hammerstein because that's who we were emulating. All our heroes were just Chuck Berry, Little Richard and the rest. There might have been a little Goffin and King in there, because we were very keen on their stuff. So we were starting to be really good then, I think for me one of the great clinches was one morning hearing the milkman whistle, "Is there anything that you want?" I said that's it, I'm in; that was it really, I think that was the best compliment I've ever been paid to this day. I'd got home late from a club and me and the milkman were on the same wavelength; I was just getting into bed and I could hear him rattling his bottles outside and whistling From Me To You. I wrote that! That was a fabulous feeling, I must say: I could obviously go on and on for ever.
Paul McCartney has just taken a seat at his piano, centre-stage at a sports arena in downtown Miami, Florida. Before he touches the keys, he glances idly at his audience, which, this afternoon, comprises approximately a dozen people, mostly security guards and members of his crew. Directly opposite McCartney, on the arena floor, one of the crew members sits at a long table making notes on a sheet of paper. McCartney furrows his brow and says into the mic, "With that guy sitting over there, I feel like I'm on Pop Idol." The small crowd chuckles, as McCartney, imitating Simon Cowell, barks, "You're no good!" Then, in the voice of a cringing novice, he says, "W-w-well, we been t-t-told we were all right." Once the laughter dies down, McCartney turns back to the piano and plays "Hey Jude".
The last time McCartney toured North America, in 2002, the shows grossed $126m (?72m), which made him the top touring artist of the year. McCartney has just worked out the set list this morning for his current tour, which will begin in less than a week. "I like to keep things a little loose," he says with a shrug. "You don't want it to become like a Broadway show."
Fans, of course, will come to see the hits, which McCartney happily delivers. During this afternoon's rehearsal, he and his touring band run through "Penny Lane", "Good Day Sunshine", "Back in the USSR", "Band on the Run" and "Live and Let Die". They also play "Too Many People", a rare angry-McCartney track from his 1971 solo album, Ram. (Beatles fans interpreted lyrics like "You took your lucky break and broke it in two/Now what can be done for you?" as references to John Lennon; they also read something into the back-cover photograph of what appears to be one beetle sodomising another.)
But however bottomless the love for McCartney's past glories, the most exciting thing about his latest tour may be the fact that - as with his peers in the Rolling Stones - it's in support of a new album that people actually like. Chaos and Creation in the Backyard has been hailed by many critics as McCartney's strongest effort since Flowers in the Dirt, the 1989 album on which he co-wrote a number of songs with Elvis Costello. For Chaos and Creation, McCartney chose another younger collaborator, the producer Nigel Godrich, best known for his work on the past four Radiohead albums and Beck's Sea Change. McCartney played nearly every instrument on the album - not only guitar, bass, drums and piano but flugelhorn, guiro, harpsichord, triangle, maracas, gong, toy glockenspiel, Moog organ and tubular bells - with a result that's always sonically captivating and often thrillingly weird. Because this is a Paul McCartney album, there are love songs, but most have a haunted, slightly mournful air, a seeming reflection - though McCartney insists none of his songs is directly autobiographical - of the death of his wife of 29 years, Linda McCartney, from breast cancer in 1998, and of his subsequent marriage, in 2002, to the former model Heather Mills.
"How Kind of You", for example, is decidedly downbeat, with lyrics from the point of view of a grateful older man surprised to find romance in the twilight of his life. "I thought my faith had gone," McCartney sings, as a sinister melody twists in ways that keep the listener as off-balance as the song's weary protagonist. There's a similar vibe on "At the Mercy", which plays upon one of McCartney's most famous lyrics - "The love you take is equal to the love you make", from "The End" - in the far more ambivalent overtures of a man reluctant to choose between "the love I've got and the love I'd lose".
Chaos and Creation also finds McCartney far more comfortable with his own musical past. The standout track "Jenny Wren" is a lovely acoustic ballad in the vein of "Blackbird" that could be an outtake from White Album. And "Anyway" spins a simple "People Get Ready" vamp into a soaring arrangement that recalls the final suite of Abbey Road.
"Early on, say, with Wings, it was a necessity to not sound like The Beatles," says McCartney, who, for rehearsal, is casually dressed in jeans and a white T-shirt that reads East Hampton Town Dump. "I didn't want to write another 'Eleanor Rigby'." He hums the melody, as if I may not be familiar with the tune. "And it's only more recently that I've realised I did establish my own identity and said, 'Well, OK, what's the battle about, then? There's no need to keep fighting. You're a part of The Beatles, you're a part of Wings and you're a part of your new stuff now, and it's all your style.' And so, yeah, on 'Blackbird', I had done a kind of slightly folksy guitar part which had a top melody and an accompanying bass line, and the two going together gave it this certain character. And I've never done anything since along those lines. And so now, on this new album, I thought, 'Why not? What am I frightened of?' There could be two songs in the world like that. And I wrote the first one! So it's not like I'm nicking anyone's thing."
I interviewed McCartney in two sessions during rehearsals - as he snacked on broccoli, green beans and a heavily buttered slice of bread - and later after a photo shoot at New York's Brooklyn Navy Yard. The day of the shoot, McCartney drove in from the Hamptons, the seaside retreat of the East Coast elite, where he spent part of his summer with his wife and their two-year-old daughter, Beatrice. At 63, he's trim (a 33-inch waist) and a bit grey at the temples (the tabloids have delighted in accusing Mills of pushing hair dye on Sir Paul, who retorted that he'd been dyeing his hair for years). We began by talking about Godrich, who was recommended to McCartney by The Beatles producer George Martin.
MARK BINELLI: Do you and George Martin still talk regularly?
PAUL McCARTNEY: Yeah, we meet up quite a bit, actually. Particularly because we used his studio for the London end of the recording. George always pops in, especially if he knows I'm there. He's one of the most important men in my life, and that's including my father, my brother, the Beatles - George Martin is right up there in the top five. Really, I would like to work with him for ever. That would be my dream.
MB: Does he still produce?
McCARTNEY: No. He's got a hearing problem, like a lot of us from the Sixties. We did listen to it too loud. He just got to the stage where he thinks, very nobly, that he shouldn't produce. I say to him, "George, the engineers need the ears. You're the ideas man." But I think it's very cool of him to know when not to do it. So I just rang him up and said, "If I can't have you, who's the man?" He chatted it around, thought about it, talked to his son, and a couple of days later he came back and said Nigel.
MB: Had you been aware of Nigel's work?
McCARTNEY: Yeah, but without knowing he was the man behind it. I liked the last couple of Radiohead albums, particularly the sound. And Travis, The Invisible Band. And Beck. So we just met up, chatted and liked each other - I think. I liked him. And then I sent him a couple of records that I thought might either turn him on or off, or might just be a direction to go.
MB: Demos you'd made?
McCARTNEY: No, other people's records. I liked the idea of toying with a kind of Asian thing, a one-chord thing. There's an artist called Nitin Sawhney who I like. It was just a vibe I was into at the time, that sort of droniness. I didn't know what I'd do with it. It was just a mood thing. And Nigel said, "Mmm, no. I know what album I want to make if I'm going to work with you. I want to make an album that's you." And I thought, "That's the kind of producer I need now." So we agreed to meet up for a test period - two weeks in London. The first week was with my touring band, and we were quite excited to record together. But Nigel had this itching feeling, like he could do something else. He wanted to move in a bit more daring direction. He said, "I want to take you out of your safety zone." Kept saying that - "It's just too easy."
Godrich eventually talked McCartney into saving his band for the tour and playing nearly every instrument himself, just as he'd done on his first solo effort, McCartney. That album was recorded in 1970 and released 10 days after McCartney's official statement that the Beatles had broken up. McCartney's relationship with the group's manager, Allen Klein, had particularly soured. "I used to have dreams in which Allen Klein was an evil dentist," McCartney recalls. "That was a bad sign. I just wanted to be as far away from Apple [the Beatles' label and business office] as possible."
To that end, McCartney set up a Studer four-track recorder in his living room and, as he says, went from "everything to zero. It was liberating." McCartney made the entire album alone (save for some harmonies with his wife), using a single microphone, which he moved closer to the drum kit if he wanted a louder cymbal sound. Some tracks, like "The Lovely Linda", are mere fragments of a song, and background noises are audible throughout. McCartney called the album "kind of throwaway" in a 1974 interview, but today its loose, offhand feel is charming, a precursor to the low-fi home taping of indie-rock bands.
In coaxing McCartney to play multiple instruments on Chaos and Creation, Godrich began with percussion. "I love kicking around on the drums," McCartney admits. "I'll do it at the drop of a hat. So I started kicking, and he said, 'Yeah! This is it, man. It just turns the track around. It's you!' Then he said, 'Look, I'd like to hear you on guitar. What have you got?' I brought my old Epiphone electric guitar out, which was like a cheap Gibson in the early days. It's the guitar that I played the opening riff of 'Paperback Writer' on, so it's a lovely guitar. It can be quite varied - sort of horny and hard, like the 'Taxman' solo; that was the other thing I used it on. George [Harrison] let me have a go for that solo because I had an idea - it was the early Jimi Hendrix days and I was trying to persuade George to do something like that, feedback-y and crazy. And I was showing him what I wanted, and he said, 'Well, you do it.' Even though it was his song, he was happy for me to do it. And this became Nigel's favourite guitar."
MB: Do you have a lot of old guitars you end up pulling out?
McCARTNEY: I've got a few guitars that I like. The trouble with fame and riches is that you have more than one guitar. When you're a kid, you've only got one guitar, and you love it, and you string it and you cherish it, and you put it to bed at night and all that shit. You relate to it. When you've got two you don't know which one to choose. It's an embarrassment of riches. Then you've suddenly got three and four, and then at my stage in the game, people give you guitars. So you've suddenly got a cellarful.
But my Epiphone, that's my electric guitar, that is the one. I like to play on it because it's oldish and a bit infirm. It won't stay in easily - Jimi Hendrix's guitar didn't. Jimi was always, like, calling out to the audience, 'Will you come tune this? One night - it's an old story of mine and I love it - we released Sgt Pepper's on a Friday, and on Sunday Jimi opened his show with it in London. He did this long solo like only Jimi could. And at the end of it, he had gone hopelessly out of tune. So he shambled over to the mike and said, Is Eric [Clapton] in the house? Eric shrunk down in his seat. Some girls said, "Yeah, he's here!" Jimi said, "Will you come and tune this for me?" Of course, Eric shrunk even lower and Jimi had to tune it himself. Anyway, I was into that kind of thing, and that's why I bought my Epiphone. I went to the shop and said, "What have you got that feeds back great?" That was normally a disadvantage in the old days - in the older old days. I use the Les Paul onstage, because it doesn't go out of tune as much, and it has a nice sound. But Nigel would wrinkle his nose and say, "It's a bit heavy rock."
MB: I'd imagine it's hard to find people, especially in the studio, who aren't intimidated by you, and who won't just be yes-men.
McCARTNEY: I suppose it is. With Nigel, I pretty much knew the minute I met him he was gearing himself up to tell me: No. From the word go. When I first brought him some songs, he just passed a few by and went to the next one, like he was shopping. I brought them back later and said, "Well, you didn't look at this one." He said, "I like the other one better." MB: Did you wrestle with that kind of bluntness initially?
McCARTNEY: Yeah, I was well pissed. "You don't like my songs. How dare you? Who are you? Punk." But I realised he was looking for a vibe. So if one of my songs was a bit perky, maybe he didn't think we should do it this time around. I might have thought, "Well, I've heard a lot of good perky songs on the radio. And I'm in a perky mood!" But he was just like, "Nah."
And it was good for me, because it was like working with a band member. It was like working with ... I mean, it's too heavy a comparison to say it was like working with John. Because if I say that, it's a huge statement. But it was like working with a great band member. It was similar to me and John, back to when we were just kids, before we'd been discovered.
There was one key moment when it all rose to the surface. I was in the studio, raring to go. Got my Hofner [bass guitar] out, tuned her up, knew what I was going to play. I was in a good mood. I was just about to listen to the track and find my way through a bass part when Nigel said, "You know that song you played the other day? I really didn't like it. I think it was crap." I said, "Oh, yeah?" And I thought, "What will I do now? Fucking ... punch him? Or just spit at him? Tell him to fuck off? Or what?"
MB: When was the last time somebody told you to your face that a song of yours was crap?
McCARTNEY: It's happened. But a while ago. I thought, "OK, we'll talk about it." It wouldn't be so bad if I thought the song was crap, too. But there was something there. I said, "Well, look, I'll just try the bass, and we'll talk about the song in a little bit."
I tried the bass, and of course my energy had totally gone. And the hole that my energy used to be in was now floating with insecurity. The pool was filling up fast. I couldn't get anywhere on the bass. I said, "OK, look. I can't do this now. I'll tell you what - that was really terrible timing. I was all energised. Don't you know that that was not that diplomatic a moment to tell me?" I was slightly pissed that he told me, and I was probably turning it into a timing issue. He said, "I didn't think you would take it like that." I said, "Well, come on, man, I'm human. You just told me something that I've worked on is crap."
Anyway, I tried to do something else - just something fun, like [playing on] wine glasses, anything, just some goof-off thing that I didn't need any talent for. But I couldn't even do that. I said, "You know what, I'm going home. Sorry, guys. Goodbye." I didn't storm out, but I just sort of said, "I can't cut it. I got home and it totally just wrecked my mood. But I had a good evening, got over it all and came in the next day and said, "Put that track on, I'm doing the bass." I did the bass in, like, one take. But then we had the talk. I said, "I'm so spoiled. George Martin is the diplomat of all diplomats."
MB: If George Martin didn't like something, what would he say?
McCARTNEY: He would say, "Oh, perhaps we ought to try another approach on this. What I was thinking was, we might try, for instance, a string quartet on 'Yesterday'." And I'd go, "Oh, no!" He said, "But look, we could try it. I could be wrong. And if you don't like it, take it off." I told Nigel this, and he said, "I understand. But I'm not George Martin. This is who I am, and if we're to get on, we've got to find a way."
So after that one little incident, it was like, "Fuck off, Nigel! Fuck off!" It was great. We just shouted at each other after that.
Though the past two decades or so of McCartney's solo career have often proved embarrassingly mawkish - see everything from "Ebony and Ivory" to the September 11 anthem "Freedom" - he had an impressive run in the Seventies. He followed up McCartney with the pastoral psychedelia of Ram, then formed the hit machine that was Wings. Though songs like "Band on the Run" and "Let 'Em In" could be placed alongside McCartney's best work with the Beatles, Wings would become synonymous with the overblown arena rock of the day - and with easy-listening trifles like "Silly Love Songs." McCartney was also widely mocked for insisting that Linda - an accomplished photographer but not a trained musician - sing with the band.
What the critics failed to acknowledge was that "Silly Love Songs" is a master-crafted easy-listening trifle, the platonic ideal of easy-listening trifles. And as for the overblown arena rock, well, fashions change. Backstage at this summer's Live 8 London concert, Bono greeted McCartney by asking, "You know what the fucking hippest band is this year?" When McCartney shrugged his shoulders, Bono exclaimed, "Wings!"
"I thought, 'If only Linda could hear this,'" McCartney says with a bemused shrug. "The vindication!"
MB: Being younger, does Heather have very different musical references? Are there certain things she loves that you hate, or vice versa?
McCARTNEY: She was brought up with a lot of classical music - her dad was a classical-music freak - so she knows a lot of Wagner and things like that. But the strangest area is the Beatles. Certain things she won't know at all. I thought it was a generational thing, but her younger sister does know the Beatles. It must have been where her life was at, at the time. She had a complex life and troubled childhood. And I guess she sort of skipped a beat while everyone else was listening to the Beatles.
MB: Was she really into punk or something like that?
McCARTNEY: No, her younger sister was punk rock. Heather liked AC/DC.
MB: So was there one Beatles song she didn't know that just shocked you?
McCARTNEY: Yeah! Once "Get Back" was playing somewhere. She recognised my voice and asked, "Is this you?" I said, "Yes, darling. It's called 'Get Back.' It's quite famous."
MB: Michael Jackson bought much of the Beatles' publishing catalogue in the Eighties. Now that he's having financial difficulties, have you considered buying it back?
McCARTNEY: No. Everyone else thinks I should, though. The thing is, I get some money from the publishing already. And in a few years, more of the rights automatically revert to me. The only annoying thing is, when I tour in America, I have to pay to play some of my own songs. But I don't think about that.
MB: Back when you were investing in other people's publishing, would you always invest in songs that you liked? Or could you bring yourself to invest in, say, a Celine Dion song you hated but you knew would be profitable?
McCARTNEY: No. I would need to like the song. That's why I got into that sort of investing. You don't play music because you want to become a businessman. Early on, we got "Stormy Weather" and a lot of standards. We got Buddy Holly. One of the publishing deals we ended up passing on was Bob Dylan's. We considered it, but it seemed like too much responsibility. I didn't want him ringing me up at three in the morning going, "Why have you screwed up my songs?!"
MB: Are you competitive with your contemporaries? When Dylan puts out a good album, do you think, "Wow, this raises the bar"?
McCARTNEY: I don't feel competitive. I've been in enough competitions in my life [laughs]. I'm done with that.
MB: I'm interested in what you said about finding someone to collaborate with. It seems to me that when two people who are so perfectly matched, like you and John Lennon, end up working together, and you're on this equal level, where you're battling each other and driving each other to do better work, after something like that, can you ever -
McCARTNEY: No. The answer's no. With John and I, it was so special, I think both of us knew we couldn't get that again. And it's proved itself, through time, to be as special as it felt when we were doing it. So I don't think that could happen again. We really were a complete fluke - just two kids who happened to meet up in Liverpool and share an interest and start writing songs together. And then developed, organically, together. And had the same sense of humour. And learned things at the same rate. Found out about Vietnam together. Little things.
All of these little awarenesses pretty much hit us at the same time over a period of years. And you really become soulmates when that happens. With writing, it was just too amazing, when we'd get on a roll with a song. We'd work so fast. We'd go in for about a three-hour session. We'd get a bit bored after three hours, although we never looked at the clock. But it was always about three hours. And at the end of every single session, we came out with a song.
One of us might get blocked, and the other would suggest something. The song "Drive My Car", which I brought in, was originally called "Golden Rings" - good meter, good rhythm, but lousy lyrics. "Baby, I get you golden rings/I can get you anything/And baby I love you." Whatever. And we tried. We tried so hard. And we got completely stuck. We couldn't live with these rings. So we just had a break, a cup of tea or something, and then came back and said, "All right, what the hell's going on here?" And we somehow just rethought it from the point of view of this girl who wanted a chauffeur. And suddenly we were in LA and the sun was shining, and it wrote itself.
Then there were songs like "A Day in the Life", where we wrote, "I'd love to turn you on," looking at each other like naughty little schoolboys, knowing what we were about to unleash with that lyric.
MB: If you're not working on an album, do you still play music every day?
McCARTNEY: No, not every day. I'm not a great practiser at all. We were never great practisers. The Beatles would come together for about a day before we had a tour, to make sure the amp worked. Now I'll do two weeks, just because I'm the only vocalist now and it's a bigger affair.
Keith Richards once said to me, "Do you know the difference between your band and ours, man? You had four frontmen, and we only had one." And I must say, I had never thought of it that way. But he's right. Any one of us could hold the audience. Ringo would do [the Beatles' cover of the Shirelles song] "Boys", which was a favourite with the crowd. And it was great - though if you think about it, here's us doing a song, and it was really a girls' song.
But we never even listened. It's just a great song. I think that's one of the great things about youth - you just don't even think about that shit. I love the innocence of those days.
MB: Speaking of the Stones, it seems like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have a similar sort of contentious relationship as you and John did. Why do you think it still works?
McCARTNEY: Well, I don't know if they do have a contentious relationship. But John and I certainly didn't, not when it came to making music. Never in the studio. It was everything else - business, relationships, all that shit. But when we came into the studio, it was great. John could bring in a song like "Come Together", and I could tell him, "That sounds like a Chuck Berry tune" - it was fast when he brought it in, and it sounded like a Berry tune called "You Can't Catch Me". And I said that, not like, "Oh, you're ripping off Chuck Berry." I just mentioned it and said, "What if we slow it down to bum bum ba da bum ..." And he said, "Yeah!" That was the kind of relationship we had. Let It Be was the only album where things were contentious, but that was a one-off. That was the very end.
MB: Are you bracing yourself for the slew of "When I'm Sixty-four" articles when you turn sixty-four next year?
McCARTNEY: My kids have told me, "Dad, you must not be on the face of the planet next year." Or else, I'll be in the thick of it. I'm taking suggestions.
Just as nature hates a vacuum, so commentators detest silence. Give them no words to twist and no motives to doubt and they have to invent them. For 28 years, Linda was the half of the McCartney marriage who spoke out about the abuse of animals, who became a voice for vegetarianism and who condemned cruelty with transparent honesty. What was Paul thinking of all this time? Sneaking a quick pork sausage, some would have you believe.
To imagine that soul mates - who for 30 years spent most days together and every night bar one - could have such fundamentally different values is laughable. Caring about animals wasn't just Linda's thing - never has been. "Linda spoke for both of us, in fact for all our family. I want to reassure people that now she's gone, the battle doesn't stop. I will now try to step into her shoes - me and the kids."
It's difficult to imagine the aching void that the death of someone so close, so in tune with you, must leave behind but Paul McCartney has things to say and he wants to say them. He doesn't speak of sorrow and loss but about pride and continuity and commitment. I've barely sat down in his offices in Soho Square before the words come tumbling out. It's almost like he's been desperate to say them to someone and once started he doesn't want to stop, particularly for questions... "I must finish my point - God, I do go on a bit don't I? See, it wasn't just Linda. Trouble is I'm boring, she was much more succinct!"
Boring he isn't as he darts from one subject to another but never losing eye contact with me. The words 'my mate' and 'soul mate' keep poignantly reappearing as he talks about Linda and occasionally he lapses into the present tense as if she was still fighting alongside him. Suddenly he gets back to the point - the same point and he wants to stress it again:
"Linda became the spokesperson largely because she had the time available. I'd be off making music somewhere but in fact she was speaking for both of us, for all our family. I really worry that good animal activists around the world might think that we've lost a powerful voice. Well, we have but my voice is there now and I'm going to try to use it."
With the world's media pounding on his door demanding to know what's next, I'm fascinated as to why Paul has chosen Viva! as his vehicle. We're usually prefixed with the word 'radical' simply because we tell it like it is. (Why solid research, science and a good dose of honesty should be labelled radical, I don't know - on the other hand, society is now so deceived at all levels by bullshit and glitz that perhaps I do understand.)
The truth is that planet earth is running out of time. Huge environmental, human and animal catastrophes are developing fast and meat eating is at the heart of them. One by one Paul touches on each - land degradation, disappearing water, dying oceans, habitat loss, the squandering of world food resources and the appalling cruelty of a people in denial. He is well informed, concerned and has a message to pass on. There are other, softer options than Viva! through which to do it. Perhaps this is a measure of his concern - a nailing of his colours to the mast.
Out of all these global issues, what is it that really motivates Paul McCartney? "It's always been and will always be compassion for animals. That's it! It's not the health thing, important though that is. It's respect for our fellow species. We're just another animal yet we think we're so clever, know so much but what have we done? We're headed towards disaster and won't even acknowledge it. From the biggest to the smallest we've beaten all the other species into submission. Couldn't we be magnanimous in victory? Couldn't we now say, 'Okay guys, we've won, now let's lighten up on these fellow species'. Isn't it time to see if there's anything they can teach us before we obliterate the whole lot of them and ourselves as well."
And of course he's right. Evidence of the disintegration of our life support mechanisms isn't hard to find. It floods in on an almost daily basis - the United Nations, the World Health Organisation, World Watch, Oxfam and a hundred other concerned bodies providing hard science in support of their warnings. They make an inside page of the broadsheets for one day then disappear, as ephemeral as a May fly.
Much more persistent and successful is the knocking copy - ignorance passed from one journalist to another like a baton in a relay race, with few ever bothering to check their claims. Typical is a full page of bigotry and spite by Mary Kenny which appeared in the Express on Sunday just days after Linda died. 'Why Paul should be made to eat his words' it was headlined with the explanatory strap, 'unfitting memorial - it is dangerous to use the death of Linda McCartney to promote vegetarianism'. But obviously not to promote the career of Mary Kenny! Kenny then set out a series of warnings which have become a journalistic mantra but are, in fact, scientific nonsense. You've heard them all before - teenagers at risk of anorexia, iron deficiency, zinc deficiency, other nutrient deficiencies and uniquely, an increased risk of cancer - 11 arrogant inaccuracies. What's the effect of years of this snide sniping by journalists?
"I think some of them are mad, I really think they're mad. They've been eating a little too much British beef. In the sixties I used to call them loveable rogues, now they've lost the loveable tag and the whole Diana thing shows that. There are a lot of them who are not good people. It's sad and it?s in line with the very laddish phase we're going through.
"But I won't let them give me that whole 'bad nutrition' thing. Look, I've helped raise a family of four kids and they couldn't be healthier. My son James is a big surfer, fit and healthy and he's a vegan. So far he's the only one in our family who is a vegan and he's telling us all that we should be vegan, too. He's right and we know he's right but we're just a little slow in getting round to it. He's cool! I know there's now a whole heap of science to show that vegetarians and vegans are healthier and live longer."
And there is! One by one the world's health advisory bodies - World Health Organisation, British Medical Association, American Dietetic Association - have adopted a unanimous position. They are now quite clear that vegetarians suffer less from all the degenerative diseases - coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, atherosclerosis (blocked arteries), strokes, diabetes, obesity, most cancers, gall bladder and kidney diseases among them. Just as importantly, they say, vegetarian diets can lower cholesterol levels and stop coronary artery disease. They're also clear about the reasons: "Vegetarian diets offer disease protection benefits because of their lower saturated fat, cholesterol and animal protein content and higher concentrations of folate and antioxidants such as vitamins A, C and E." (American Dietetic Association.)
When you stick some percentages on the risk reduction it starts to look pretty astounding - 25-50 per cent for heart disease and cancer, 25-33 per cent for hypertension, 40-90 per cent for diabetes, 75 per cent for gall bladder disease. So why are we still having to fight to defend vegetarianism? "The meat industry is big, it's powerful and governments like power, it's where their support comes from. We've seen it with the tobacco industry. When I see a thousand sheep in a field I know, before he's done anything, the farmer has made ?60,000 or whatever it is. It's crazy. We're subsidising a cruel industry that does a heap of damage. Can anyone explain that to me? No one else gets that treatment. I'd love it if they gave me ?20 for every record I make whether I sell it or not, or if you got ?20 for every copy of Viva!Life. Subsidies have got to go and then the red meat industry will start to collapse - then you'll see the world's biggest outcry.
"We're all paying for it, even veggies' tax money goes into it. The meat industry in Britain gets ?20 million a year just to advertise meat with this 'recipe for love' nonsense - probably ten times that amount if you include all the individual companies. They're all saying meat is good, meat is natural, meat is necessary. I'd love to see Linda's food get some government money or for you to get some for your campaigns. But we're not going to so we've got to communicate, talk to people and support organisations like Viva!. It reminds me of the cruise missile thing at Greenham Common. They were laughed at but they did it - they got the job done. I often said to Linda, 'This idea of ours is either right or wrong - and I know it's right'. Yeah, the farmers must be worried, they created the problems not us."
And still are creating problems! On the day of Linda's memorial service I was secretly filming conditions inside
intensive pig units. I drove down from Yorkshire to London and arrived only just in time. Perfume from a host of flowers filled the church of St Martin?s in the Field and the voices of the students from the Liverpool School of Performing Arts were so beautiful they made me cry. But still in my nostrils was the overpowering stench of ammonia and faeces from the most appallingly barren and overcrowded conditions in which thousands of bright and intelligent animals are forced to live. Still in my ears were their screams as they clambered over each other, pleading to be let out.
Everywhere we pointed the camera we saw diseased, dead and dying animals. In every enclosure there were the products of brutal neglect and indifference - broken legs, abscesses half the size of a football, ruptured stomachs, animals coughing from pneumonia, others panting from meningitis, deep cuts and lacerations from the perforated metal on which they have to live. These were approved units which supply our supermarkets. The contrast with the interior of the church was profound but it was a potent reminder of why we were gathered together celebrating the life of someone who cared.
With real irony, on the day I interviewed Paul, the government announced it was to launch a special pork promotion. And the theme? Buy British because of our superb animal welfare standards!
"I think it's very, very sad and belittling for us. It's something that says a lot about us. I see the future of the planet as a clear choice - between doing that sort of thing to animals or not doing it. There's a sort of loathing among a lot of farmers for what is actually giving them a living. But it's the fact that it's encouraged and everyone pretends it's all okay. It's easier than doing something about it.
"We can't go on cramming creatures into battery cages, broiler sheds, turkey sheds and so on. Where's the compassion? What the hell's so wrong about compassion? What's so bad about it? Why should we have to keep on brutalising ourselves?
"At San Francisco University, they're planning to bombard monkeys with 145 decibels of sound which will make them deaf and they say it's okay because they're anaesthetised first. And it's all to prove that you shouldn't listen to loud music or stand under a jet 'plane. Well we know that anyway.
"I watched something on the telly where they had severed the spinal cord of dogs and cats and they were walking around on their front legs, dragging their back halves behind them on the floor of the lab. These are quadrupeds, we're bipeds and it's a nonsense to think you can learn about the human spine by disabling cats and dogs. I defy anyone to look at this footage and not be sickened. These animals don't have the choice and they don't have the voice.
"It became very difficult when Linda died because I said I would support cancer charities and animal rights groups wrote to me pointing out that many were heavily into vivisection - and it's true. A doctor we knew out in America just admitted it as a matter of fact, innocently, like 'well sure we do'. What he doesn't realise is that he won't get a donation out of me for that very fact. It's like having Beagles smoke for us, we don't need that, we've outlived that period. There are better alternatives but you're not allowed to challenge the status quo. It's the same with agriculture."
The fast flow of words and emotions begins to slow as Paul McCartney becomes more considered, piecing beliefs together, connecting one complex series of issues with another.
"Someone said that 90 per cent of land in Britain is used to feed animals. That's another crazy thing - so inefficient! You can feed ten times the number of people on the food they give to animals. There's so many animals, there's not enough land any more and everything's swamped with pesticides and fertilisers - fodder, fruit, veg, the lot - to increase output. It's destroying just about everything - topsoil, wildlife, water, birds. If everyone went veggie we'd need only about half the amount of land and we could have real forests and wild places again. But the RSPB still won't say to people, 'if you want to save the birds, stop eating meat', because they think it's unacceptable.
"My place is now organic. It wasn't and it took three years to get worms back in the soil. Then every year we saw more birds come back. When I was a kid you could eat a raw carrot safely but now you've got to wonder whether it's a got a coat of poison on it. One of the greatest ongoing experiments on humankind, they reckon, is what we shove in our gobs. It's never worked out, you just shove it in - a Mars bar, a burger, a milkshake and you wonder why you have a heart attack!"
And where does genetically modified food come into all this in Paul's world perspective?
"People are trying to avoid modified soya and quite right. But the biggest user of soya - about 90 per cent - is the meat industry as livestock feed. Vegetarian products that may contain soya will have to be labelled but meat, which comes from animals fed on it, doesn't have to be labelled. This is a lovely little loophole that the meat industry is going to exploit and I think people should be aware of it. There's so many things people aren't aware of.
"Livestock farming is one of the biggest destroyers of the planet. When you see the Amazon being cut down for hamburger cattle, that's pretty obvious. What isn't so obvious is the drying up of the water table and rivers in the US and elsewhere. Animals use up huge amounts of water and there are billions of them. And it's all done in the name of something that benefits humans when in fact it's the opposite. It's all about attitudes, no one thinks they're the one who has to change. Take Prince PhilipS"
There's an exchange of glances between Paul and his publicist. 'Are you certain you want to say this?' ask the eyes. Paul's return glance says 'for sure'. Sir Paul McCartney, Knight of the Realm, is about to have a go at the Realm. "Linda was the ballsiest woman, a very strong lady and she once took him on and that was a nice little moment. Because she was American she talked to him just like he was a bloke, not all reverent like the British do. She said: 'You're the head of a worldwide wildlife organisation, how can you go out shooting birds?' 'Are you vegetarian?', he asked, trying to catch us out."
Paul's mock posh accent doesn't shed the Liverpudlian entirely. "'YEAH', we both answered. President of a wildlife organisation shooting birds, that's hypocrisy. It's not even sport. They choose a bird that doesn't even fly well, a pheasant. Let's see him try and shoot swallows, they're not so easy to catch."
No Don Quixote is Paul McCartney, tilting at windmills, but someone who has decided to tackle head on some of the most intractable problems facing the world, mostly out of sheer instinct.
"I'm not saying all of what I think is watertight, this is just a feeling. Don't blame me if I don't know exactly how many cows are slaughtered or exactly how long it takes one of them to die. I don't know all the facts but I can get the facts. For me this is about the total lack of respect for animals and for the planet and that we can't go on doing what we're doing forever.
"Eventually, there's got to be change. If you can feed ten times the number of people by not passing food through animals first and then killing them, that's got to make people think. Even if you don't care about animals, that's a highly efficient economic argument and even McDonalds likes efficiency.
"As it is, China is being sold factory farming in a big way and India is following, being raped of its principles. As some sensible lady Indian minister said on telly: 'We're entering the hole that you're starting to climb out of'. It's sucking in the world's supplies of grain and soya which are needed for people. It's costing lives. That's why we've got to get our message out there. We're part of that Western machine. If we don't, the only message they're going to hear is McDonalds'. There's got to be more people like us or there's not going to be a world for any of us, McDonalds included."
I don't know if Paul realises it but he is echoing almost exactly the views of the World Health Organisation, which in 1991 called for a complete reversal of the West's agricultural policies. Their message was unequivocal - an end to the promotion of meat and dairy products, an end to factory farming and better use of land by growing crops for people not animals. It also warned of dire consequences if we continued to influence the developing world's agriculture. The report was interpreted by the Daily Mail as a call for global vegetarianism - and it was right. But what's happened? Exactly the opposite and the report has disappeared without trace.
We all have more or less the same access to information so why are some people inspired to act and others aren't? How did it start for Paul and Linda? The sudden connection between lambs gambolling outside the window on their farm in Scotland and leg of lamb on their plate is now pretty well known. But whose idea was it?
"It was Linda's memory that it was me who said we should try going vegetarian. Loving animals so much, she wasn't going to say no. To be honest I can't remember who said it but she credits me with it. She was a very gracious person.
"I think the deciding factor for us was the love of animals - just simple compassion. We had very different upbringings but we talked about our childhoods, the kind of thing you talk to your mate about and discovered we were very much the same. Linda was brought up in Scarsdale and would go to this open space in the posh area where she lived. There was a little stream running through it and no one ever went down there but Linda. She'd take friends and show them things, like lifting a rock with a salamander underneath it.
"For me it was tadpoles and newts on the other side of the world. I'd wander around the outskirts of Speke on my own with the Observer's Book of Birds. So we have this lovely image of she and I at about the same age, around 12 or so, both loving nature both doing similar things. But that wasn't what attracted us to each other - she was a photographer and I was a musician and it was more on that level. We didn't even realise it at first but the more we got to know each other the more apparent it became that we had this deep connection which was animals. Neither of us had talked about it before. I hadn't in the Beatles and she hadn't as a photographer.
"It influenced so much of our lives later on. When I had a quiet day, I would go out into the woods and clear a new trail through the trees - that was one of my joys. Then we would go out on our horses together and I would say, as a surprise, 'Let's ride down there' and she'd get so excited. But it was also great for the badgers and foxes and rabbits who use these paths of mine and that feels nice.
"She was very passionate about animals and would go to any lengths to help them. She wasn't a business woman really, not at all. She was free spirited - very free and easy and not wanting to get hooked into anything. Then one day I almost saw a light bulb go off over her head - ding - 'If I could save one animal!'. And that's where the food idea came from.
"During the live exports demonstrations the rationale for starting the food became so clear. I heard someone saying 'We want them on the hook not the hoof' and I couldn't believe it. I asked Carla (Lane) if they were veggie and she said that a lot of them weren't. It seemed hypocritical to me. Like the RSPCA man on TV following a lorry full of animals through Europe. He kept saying 'Oooh, I could do with a pork pie!' Did he really have to say that? What was his game - trying to make out he was just like everyone else, not a crank. Again, hypocritical. We wanted it to be easy for them to go veggie, hence the meat substitute foods. We wanted to convert meat eaters.
"It was suggested we should call them Paul McCartney foods but that sounded too Beatley, it didn't ring true. So it was Linda McCartney, mother and cook. So many women subsequently came up to Linda and thanked her, saying they wouldn't have known what to feed their daughters when they went veggie without her stuff in the freezer. That was the big thing, Linda made vegetarianism mainstream. The motivation wasn't money or fame it was 'If I could just save one animal!'.
"We're going to continue with the foods. As we go into the new century everyone is looking for new ideas, good ideas. I see vegetarianism as the best idea about. In fact it's not a new idea - it's a very old idea - but it's a new one for our Western outlook. And if the veggie thing takes hold and all these ideas click in - no animal cruelty, no fur, no animal experimentation - then there really is some sort of hope for mankind. Otherwise, forget it."
Paul's secretary comes in for the second time to remind him that it's time to go. But I can sense that we're at the end now, anyway. I'm aware that I've just interviewed someone who started life as a Liverpool working class lad but who was a legend by the time I was born. Through sheer talent, he has broken just about every record in the musical hall of fame. Without actually asking for it, he has been handed the cloak of respectability given to few popular musicians; has been presented with an entrance ticket to the establishment - if not to the innermost circle then certainly the outer courtyard. And I'm also aware that in the preceding hour he has, bit by bit, hacked away at some of the principal props which support that establishment.
Never really the centre of controversy, he now appears to have taken a calculated decision to court it. Perhaps when you've been confronted by the sad truths which have faced Paul McCartney in recent months, you make honest judgements about what matters and what doesn't. He comes back to where he started.
"I'm doing this interview so all the good people in the world will know that I'm going to be as active as Linda - people like the Australian groups fighting with Viva! to save the kangaroo. It's just that until recently, I had the luxury of Linda, the world's greatest luxury, the world's greatest soul mate who took on the role for me - the role of saving animals. It was a long time ago that Linda said, 'If I can save just one animal!'. We were able to say to her, 'Hey babe, you've saved so many - millions of them, miles and miles and miles of animals.'"
Paul and Linda McCartney have four children - Heather, Mary, Stella and James.
From the Beatles to the palace, Sir Paul McCartney is one of the few who deserve the title, "Living Legend".
BBC Radio Sheffield's Antonia Brickell met the Mac Daddy of pop...
Last time I saw you was Sunday 6 April, you were doing your soundcheck and I was chomping at the bit to talk to you. What a build up - and here you are now.
And I lost my voice, but here I am now, yeah.
And we cried.
Why did we cry, because I lost my voice? It was very weird, you know. I'd never had to cancel a show before and I had to walk around with a pad and a pen, writing things down.
The doctor said, just don't talk for two days and that's not easy. But anyway I'm glad to be back, it's really great and the penultimate night of the tour now, so it's fabulous.
So how's the tour been? You've been to Moscow, you've been to Rome….
Well at least I've got more to talk to you about now.
Yeah, Moscow was fantastic. We played in Red Square and Heather and I got invited to the Kremlin with Mr Putin and all that.
It was really great - the weather was great, the Russians were fantastic. I'd never been and Heather had never been, so it was a great first visit. We got to see St Petersburg and Moscow and everything.
Then we were in Rome, which was unbelievable, by the Colosseum playing a gig inside one night and then outside the other.
And the outside gig was like five hundred thousand people - so it was just a mile of people.
Unbelievable - they had screens going down so everyone could see and hear and it just worked out great. So we've been having a great time.
Do you not feel that the pressure is on when you drive past and you see these thousands, these millions of people waiting to see you - you and Heather?
Well, not really you know, because you get used to it, to tell you the truth. It's normally not millions of people, that takes a bit of getting used to.
But it is normally thousands. I think when you don't do that - a lot of my friends don't do that and they're ordinary - well not ordinary, they're normal people, whatever you call people….
Whatever you call normal…
Well that's what I mean, it's hard to describe people like that. But they're people who don't do what I do.
And they say "Oh you must be really tired." And I say "No I love it, y'know".
'Cos I think the idea for them of getting out of a traffic jam and getting out of work each week and going and doing all this stuff would be really exhausting.
But I say to them "No, it's great really, we have a good time, we love playing the music, we travel in real style." So half the time it's like being on holiday. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
You played in Sheffield in 1964 with the Beatles at the City Hall and obviously things have changed a little bit. Now you're here, what do you see the differences as for you as a performer?
I feel lovely about the whole tour, obviously and coming to Sheffield after losing my voice and stuff.
I was always very disappointed not to do that second night.
It's great y'know - I didn't really notice enough the first time around to be able to say to you well that's new, or that's been built or that wasn't here…
But the feeling was, we're talking about the 60s, so Sheffield was a little northern town, or seemed like. And now it seems bigger and more modern - all the obvious stuff.
But did you imagine when you were here with the Beatles, that you'd still be packing them in at 60?
No, no, I really didn't. We didn't think any of that was going to happen. We thought we might have about five or ten years tops with the group, but it just continued.
When the 10 years was up we thought "Well now we're coming up to 30, it's time to retire isn't it?"
But it wasn't y'know because we were still doing stuff, then I went on with Wings and that ended up to be a big success.
I think the truth is I just always enjoy it; and if you really enjoy what you do you don't want to stop.
So people say "Are you going to retire?" and stuff. I say "Well you know, even if I retire I won't stop singing. I just love it too much. I won't stop writing songs."
So it's just a natural thing for me to do this. Obviously the audiences are coming and it's still as big as this tour has been. Which is phenomenal….
And internationally as well. I mean people love you in the States, you're away….
Aw gee, thanks for saying that! No it is true though - it is fabulous, it's quite surprising. I do love what I do and as long as they love what I do, I'll continue to do it? So do you look back on this tour and see it as a Paul McCartney tour or a Beatles nostalgia tour, because you do do a lot of the Beatles numbers don't you? Well I actually think it's a Paul McCartney thing, because I always do 'after the Beatles'. So it was Wings and then solo stuff. But the thing is, what I do is my songs out of the Beatles, the ones that I sang like Hey Jude and Let it Be.
I feel that in one way those are Beatles songs, which they are, and it was due to the Beatles that they were successful.
But in another way, because I wrote them, they're my songs.
Just as if John had been here now, he would've been doing Strawberry Fields, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, Nowhere Man, Day in the Life - you know, his selection. I do my selection.
So I do feel it's like a Paul McCartney tour yeah, but it means I'm very lucky - there's a lot of Beatles songs, a lot of Wings songs and a lot of my own….
You were a member of the Quarrymen, then the Beatles, then you went solo, then you were with Wings, then you went solo again. Which is the most enjoyable phase, is it now?
It really is very enjoyable now. I don't really like to think of any of them being more enjoyable than the other.
They're all different and they're each really enjoyable for different reasons. When we were starting off as kids, just the idea of maybe going to do this as a living instead of getting what we thought was going to be a boring job, was exciting.
So that, doing it for the first time was like "wow, really exciting." And then getting into the Beatles and that building into a phenomenon was like, "Oh my god, this is really exciting."
And then instead of just not doing anything, re-doing the whole thing with Wings and then that being a success, y'know, with Linda. That was really exciting, but in different ways.
And now, with this new band and the success we've had with this tour it's in a new way again.
So I just feel amazingly lucky to be part of all these different phases and still be loving it.
You've recently got married and I'm just wondering why you don't fancy being relaxed at home putting you feet up with the beautiful Heather. Drinking, eating, being kind of domestic bliss orientated….
Well I do fancy that, and I fancy her, and I fancy drinking and eating! You know what? The truth is we actually do that quite a lot. We were in Dublin the night before last and Heather and I were out at a little restaurant last night. We went for a little bike ride during the day, we went for a little drive out in Dublin.
So I mean that's what you do when you're together and we do that on our days off. But every so often there's this little thing called a gig.
And I kind of enjoy it y'know, but mainly we're at home watching the TV and stuff. We have quite a long time off coming up now so we'll do a lot of that then.
But actually on this tour, you'd be surprised. In America we did three months, which is quite dotty. It's not like we're slaving away: we're down in Miami, we're on the beach, we're in a posh hotel in Miami for two days and then we do a show. So it's not a slog.
I know you don't want me to talk about this too much but congratulations, a dad at 60! How do you see the next five years mapping out? Because we are so excited.
Well I'm excited too. I never look forward and say this is how the next five years are going to be, because to tell you the truth I have no idea about how any of it happened to getting here.
So I've no idea how the next five years are going to be.
Heather and I are very excited and we don't really want to add anything to that, but we're very, very happy about having a baby. It's lovely news.
Interview With Paul McCartney, Heather Mills McCartney
Aired March 3, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Sir Paul McCartney and his wife Heather Mills McCartney making international headlines with their controversial mission to stop something they call needless brutality that others say they have to do to live; heated debate with Sir Paul and Heather Mills McCartney and more next on LARRY KING LIVE. Good evening. Sir Paul and Lady Heather are calling on the newly-elected Canadian prime minister to end the annual commercial hunt for seal skins forever. They headed out to the ice flows in the Gulf of St. Lawrence on Thursday and Friday, their visit organized by the Humane Society of the United States.
The U.S. moved to ban the import of seal products in 1972 and the European Union instituted a partial ban in 1983. But, by the mid- 1990s new markets opened up in China and Russia reviving the sealing industry. One word of caution as we begin our broadcast, because of the subject matter tonight, some of the video we'll show is very disturbing. And, the premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams, will join us later to give the government's position.
Paul, why did you get -- why are you involved in this?
SIR PAUL MCCARTNEY, PROTESTING SEAL HUNT: Larry this is something that's been going on. I've been seeing pictures of this for probably about 40 years now and I'm basically involved because I think it's a cruel practice that should be ended.
KING: And you, Heather?
HEATHER MILLS MCCARTNEY: I got involved once I got involved in the whole fur issue and was shocked to see that these seals are being clubbed to death so inhumanely and brutally and they say that it's regulated and watched. And, of course it is for the six hours while the sealers know they're being watched. They're going to behave a bit better.
But the Humane Society U.S. have hours and hours and hours of proof of inhumane methods of killing and I just wanted to come -- I was asked to come out here and, of course, I had to. I couldn't actually sit and watch the slaughter that's going to go on in the next two weeks with pups under the age of one month old.
You know they say "Well, we don't kill white baby seals," you know, but they lose their coats after 12 days. That's like saying a baby is no longer a baby once it's a month old, you know. It's barbaric, sorry archaic and really brutal.
KING: What have you seen in person, Paul?
P. MCCARTNEY: We went out to the ice flows yesterday and we were helicoptered out there to see the seal pups and their mums on the ice, so we saw them firsthand and it's a fantastic spectacle. It's a beautiful wildlife spectacle and it's the kind of thing that people should just respect and love. It was a very beautiful sight.
And so, we went out and saw firsthand this, this very beautiful seal population and the babies themselves with their mothers. But it was -- it was terrifying to think that in probably about three weeks time sealers will arrive and with clubs and with pick axes and with guns will kill a huge amount of these baby seals.
KING: Heather, who are the sealers?
H. MCCARTNEY: Well, you said earlier in your introduction that, you know, people have to survive on this and we really researched this because, you know, we did not want to come out here and start, you know, cuddling up to seal pups and saying "It's terrible that you do this" if people are totally surviving on this.
But it's just not a fact, you know. It's less than five percent of their annual wage. There are many other ways of earning it, you know. People once had Apartheid that was traditional, you know, slavery, putting children up chimneys. It's totally inhumane and they could have ecotourism here.
The federal government used to make subsidies of $20 million. You know it adds up to about $5 million income a year. America has boycotted. People have boycotted all over red lobster and many other chains and they're losing $139 million in snow crab sales anyway. So, there's just no economic viability on why this is going on. There's just absolutely no reason whatsoever.
P. MCCARTNEY: And, if the seal hunt was to be stopped that boycott would be lifted immediately. The only reason it's in place is because of the seal hunt. One of the very first things, Larry, we saw when we came here because, as Heather said, we came with an open mind and we understand, you know, the economic issue and sympathize greatly with that.
But one of the first things we saw was a quote in the newspaper from one of the fishermen themselves who are the sealers. They are off season fishermen. And, this was a 70-year-old gentleman who said, "Oh, we don't want these do-gooders to come out here cuddling up to the seals, saying they're beautiful."
He said, "They are beautiful." He said, "And then the next thing they'll do is they'll say that the seal hunt is cruel." He said "And it is cruel." So, by this own man's admission he said "But we've been doing it 500 years." We believe that 500 years is no justification for cruelty.
H. MCCARTNEY: And these are commercial fishermen. We haven't got any issues or arguments with, you know, the Aboriginal people using it for subsistence and everything. It's the commercial fishermen who do this in the off season and earn between $1,200 and $1,500 a year and, you know...
KING: That's all?
H. MCCARTNEY: You know, they can have -- yes, they can have a licensed retirement, what do you call it?
P. MCCARTNEY: Program.
H. MCCARTNEY: Program and the federal government could pay that to them and stop this seal hunt completely and then you wouldn't have everybody boycotting Canada's seafood. You know the mass majority and that's why Paul is showing we support Canada completely, obviously huge innovators with the Mine Ban Treaty, incredible, innovative people.
Most of them don't want to see the seal hunt go ahead, you know. It's a tiny majority of people that are into tradition and sticking to their ways. We even spoke to Phil Jenkins from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the plane. We got everybody coming up to us and we're open to speak to everybody.
And even he had to admit at the end of the day its' not doing the Department of Fisheries and Oceans any good because they're losing sales. They're losing export sales for a tiny, tiny, cruel slaughtering of these poor little pups that don't even get a chance to swim before they're clubbed to death or even have their first solid meal.
KING: Paul, why do they have to be clubbed? Can't they be killed in a humane fashion?
P. MCCARTNEY: Well, they tell you that is a humane fashion. This is the traditional, one of the traditional methods. There is a clubbing that is one of the main things that happens here in Newfoundland where we were yesterday. And then there is kind of like a ice pick that is the other method and then there is shooting.
We believe that's brutal. I mean I think the thing is anyone who's ever seen footage of this, as a lot of us have over the past 40 years. I don't think anyone's ever looked at that footage and said that looks humane. I can't think of one person you could actually get to look at that footage.
And so, the kind of thing we're hoping for because as we do say we appreciate the economic angle even though it isn't the main economics for the fishermen but the kind of thing that we are hoping that the Canadian government and Steve Harper might be able to consider doing and we would ask him to consider doing this is what happened with whale hunting.
There was a point in the '70s when whale hunting was given up. The whale hunters then had their licenses bought back. They were compensated and then whale watching took its place. And now whale watching is one of Canada's most successful industries.
And we feel that, you know, the success of films like "March of the Penguins," this incredible wildlife spectacle instead of it just being an absolute brutal spectacle that really doesn't do any good for Canada's great reputation could be turned round.
You could lose the boycott which would be very helpful to the economics of the fishermen. You could change the whole thing round into an eco-tourist affair that, like the whales with the fishermen getting compensation, could end up in a win-win situation for everyone, including the seals.
KING: Let me get a break in.
H. MCCARTNEY: But it's down to -- it's down to the federal government.
KING: I'll get a break. Hold it. Hold it. We'll be right back, Heather. I got to get a break. You've hosted this show. You know we have to get breaks.
And, by the way, the premier of Newfoundland will be joining us at the bottom of the hour. We'll be right back with Sir Paul McCartney and Lady Heather Mills McCartney. They're in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. MCCARTNEY: In about three weeks time these baby seals are due to be clubbed to death or shot in what's known as the seal hunt. For many years, people have been trying to have this brutal practice stopped but we are out here to see if we can lend our voice to this campaign and maybe get it stopped once and for all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H. MCCARTNEY: Sadly, you won't be able to stop these beautiful baby seals around us being bludgeoned to death in the next few weeks but hopefully we could if we all join together and put pressure on the Canadian government to do what is just humane and stop this seal hunt, hopefully this would be the last seal hunt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with the McCartneys. Heather, you were going to say something before you were so rudely interrupted.
H. MCCARTNEY: Well, I was just going to -- I was going to go back to your question of why are they clubbed to death? The reason they're clubbed to death, so people really understand this, is because it's less damage to the skins. The reason they're killed, you know, between the ages of 12 and 24 to 30 days is because their skin is fresh. It's unmarked and it's going to be used for the fashion industry for seal skins. You know when they kill them later on, always generally under the age of one year because then their skin gets too marked, they shoot them from moving boats and most of the time they're not great shots so they lie there, you know, in agony for, you know, Humane Society U.S. filmed a young pup dying for an hour and a half before it choked on its own blood.
So, the fashion industry don't want a marked skin and that is why they don't put the second bullet hole in because every second bullet hole reduces the pelt or the skin by $2.
So, when you imagine within five days 80 percent of these 250,000 to 300,000 seals are clubbed and hacky-picked (ph) as in a hook and slain around to death and that is not humane, you know. Humane means kind and, you know, with compassion. It doesn't mean that at all.
For a minimal off season income that the federal government could make a hugely clever economical decision to actually, you know, put the money to the licensed retirement program for the fishermen.
Most of the hunters are actually desperate to retire and 15,000 to 25,000 of them have licenses and 4,000 of them still seal every year and the rest of the, you know, most of them find it very difficult to do. And they would love to have, you know, the licensed retirement program put in place.
P. MCCARTNEY: Like the whale watching.
H. MCCARTNEY: Like the whale watching, you know. It would be the best move Canada could do. When they with the innovators and the Mine Ban Treaty everybody said it's impossible. It will never happen. And look at what's happened, 151 countries no longer use those inhumane weapons of war that maim and kill men, women and children. So, Canada can be leaders, you know.
KING: Paul, are seal skins popular? I mean I hear of mink and I hear of furs but I don't hear much about seal skins.
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, I don't think it's really popular and I don't think it's a great item in the fashion industry but it is used and but I don't think it's really very popular. I don't think it would be missed sorely, you know. I think for the reasons that we are putting forward, we're asking the Canadian people and the Canadian Prime Minister Mr. Harper to consider.
We think this is something that could be done. It's time it was done. I don't think there is a huge value placed on seal skin. I think there could be more value placed on the attractive tourist industry that Canada could create by turning this whole thing around and banning the hunt.
KING: How far do you want to go, Paul? Do you want to ban seal skin sales? Do you want to stop seal skins in any products? Do you want to see the end of seal skins as wearable items?
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, the thing is, Larry that that is what I think would be a good idea. I think, as Heather said, these seal skins are only valuable while the pups are young, so you are talking about taking the lives and the skins of young baby seals that actually haven't even had a swim yet.
They're totally reliant on their mothers. They can't escape the sealers and it really is -- we've heard people who have been and witnessed the hunt and I'm sure you will be showing some pictures...
KING: Yes, I'm sure.
P. MCCARTNEY: ...where the ice, which we saw yesterday in its pristine state, where the minute that seal hunt is on the whole place turns red. It's a bloody mess and I don't think there's a reason in the 21st Century to do that.
And so what we're doing is trying to take into consideration the other sides of the argument that are being presented to us and trying to offer some long-term solution for the fishermen.
In actual fact from what we hear in independent polls of the Canadian people when they're asked a straight question "Do you want the seal hunt to continue or don't you," they say no.
KING: By the way...
H. MCCARTNEY: And, if you go onto www.protectseals.org you can see exactly what goes on and click on to say if you support the ban of this seal hunt, so protectseals.org and any help there donation wise can really help push this forward.
You know once the federal government, if they you know open up their eyes, put a ban on this then, you know, we are just trying to be mediators. We're not coming here to dictate things. It's just -- we'd rather be at home watching the telly with our little baby, you know. We don't need to come over here and stand on the ice for five hours in minus 20 degrees with the wind chill factor even worse.
You know we don't need to do this. We're not going round dictating so we don't make money from this. We don't make anything from this except we're totally devastated to watch these images. And, I couldn't enjoy one second on the ice yesterday because I just knew what's going to come in the next few weeks, you know, and that's the reality of it.
KING: By the way I need to...
H. MCCARTNEY: We can either spend our lives just sitting being quiet like so many people do being Mrs. Switzerland or we could actually speak out and on the behalf of these animals with no voices and trying to come up with solutions.
KING: By the way, I want to -- hold on one second. We need to warn people that they are seeing videos today they may find disturbing. We need to mention that the video of the seal hunts used today was provided by the Humane Society.
We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. MCCARTNEY: You know people have been trying to discuss this seal hunt for many, many years and the answer has just been that it's happened for 500 years. It's tradition and therefore it should continue. But we're hoping now that by bringing this amount of attention to what is actually an international problem, not just a Canadian problem, that we will actually be able to put an end to this brutal practice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. MCCARTNEY: This is a harp seal pup here and unless something is done about it he's going to be clubbed to death in the next few weeks. The fishermen will tell you that it's because they eat the cod but that's not true. It's the over fishing that's led to the demise of the cod.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Sir Paul McCartney and Lady Heather Mills McCartney. Have you met with the prime minister Paul?
P. MCCARTNEY: No, we haven't, no.
KING: Have you asked for a meeting?
H. MCCARTNEY: We rung him four times today and every day.
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, we rang him actually today but unfortunately he was in a meeting. I'm sure that's true. But we rang him actually just before we came on and we said, you know, "We are just shortly going to be doing the Larry King show and we'd like to offer you the courtesy of us hearing your opinion on this" because no one quite seems to know how he stands, where he stands on this. So, you know we would -- we would like to...
H. MCCARTNEY: We've heard that he's a very compassionate man and that he will, you know, find the right solution, you know, be behind this. You know, obviously he cares about what the voters think, what the people think, what he thinks individually and supporting the sealers at the same time. So we, we just think that this is an ideal opportunity for it to happen now and his second name is Harper and these are harp seals, you know. What more can you ask?
KING: Paul, your daughter Stella, a famous designer, does not use animal products right?
P. MCCARTNEY: That is right, yes, and that's pretty difficult in an industry like the fashion industry where fur is traditionally used but she has made a stance from the word go and she doesn't use fur or leather in any of her collections. And, actually these boots Heather has on which look...
H. MCCARTNEY: These boots they look like leather that I've got on and they're not.
KING: What are they?
H. MCCARTNEY: They're just a plastic.
P. MCCARTNEY: They're fake leather.
H. MCCARTNEY: They're just a fake leather.
P. MCCARTNEY: These boots are made for walking, Larry, and one of these days you know what's going to happen.
KING: You ought to record that.
H. MCCARTNEY: I'll walk right over you.
KING: Are you going to do -- by the way, oh I am told that the Prime Minister Mr. Harper, has sent Mr. Williams, who will appear in a couple of minutes, to be his emissary tonight, so in a sense he's speaking for the prime minister. That would be the premier of Newfoundland.
H. MCCARTNEY: Great. We'll look forward to hearing.
KING: So, we're told that that he has asked him to come to appear and he'll be with us in a couple minutes.
Let's just take those few minutes, Paul. Are you going to tour again?
P. MCCARTNEY: Oh, yes. I'm always going to tour again, you know. It's in my blood. It's what I do. I had a very nice tour last year in America and it was great. I love the American audiences. We played here in Canada. I love the Canadian audiences. So, yes, I'm going to tour again.
At the moment, though, you know, we're over here and this is an off period for me so it gives me a chance to come over here and study this issue and try and do something to end this 500-year slaughter.
KING: Are you by nature an activist?
P. MCCARTNEY: You know the thing is, Larry, I'm a grown up and I have an opinion like anybody else, you know, and if after 40 years you've been seeing the kind of footage that you're going to show your viewers, you either sit by quietly and do nothing about it and most of the time say, gosh that's terrible, or if you get an invitation like Heather and I had this time to come out here and to witness the event, you finally feel that something has to be done.
So, yes that makes me an activist. I do like to see -- I do like to try and do anything I can to prevent cruelty, particularly in animals because they don't have a voice and this is one of the things being an international celebrity, this is one of the advantages of it.
KING: Yes.
P. MCCARTNEY: You know there are some disadvantages but the advantages you can get time on a show like yours and discuss these issues and hopefully people make up their own minds. We want to try and present this to them in a fair way.
KING: I'm going to get a break and when we come back, Danny Williams, the Newfoundland and Labrador Premier, will join us. He will discuss the other side of this issue and we'll get comments from both Paul McCartney, Lady Heather McCartney and Danny Williams. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. MCCARTNEY: To see these beautiful animals and particularly the baby seals helpless and, as Heather said, they are helpless. They haven't even had their swim yet so they can't get away, to see them really brings it home that this is a protest that's been going on for many, many years now and that all the facts lead to only one conclusion that it's time it was stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H. MCCARTNEY: It just breaks our heart. And I couldn't even get a minute enjoyment out of going out on the ice knowing what is to come. You know, if I had gone out there in a touristic way and thought, oh, aren't they beautiful, aren't they lovely?
But I just can't help but look at them and having a baby ourselves thinking, can you imagine you have a baby and it's just taken away from you in the most horrific manner. It's just unbearable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Remaining with us are Paul McCartney and Lady Heather Mills McCartney on this issue of the sea hunt. And we're joined now in St. Johns by Danny Williams, "Newfoundland and Labrador" premier.
And you have heard, Danny, the statements in the past half hour. What's your overall response concerning your government's position to the seal hunt?
DANNY WILLIAMS, PREMIER OF NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR, CANADA, DEFENDS ANNUAL SEAL HUNT: Well, first of all, Larry, let me welcome you to Canada. And I want to thank the McCartneys and yourself for this opportunity to basically state our case.
Just so your own viewers can get some orientation, Newfoundland and Labrador is the most easterly part in North America. And I know from your award-winning shows on September 11th, we had 70 American planes came down here, and 13,000 of the passengers, American passengers found homes in Newfoundland and Labrador for about a week.
So we welcomed them into our homes and welcomed them into our hearts. And some of those homes were homes that were occupied and opened by sealers and their families. So I just want to give you some relativity. And I am sure you already know, but I would like your viewers to know that as well.
I thank you for the opportunity. I may start off by, I think, my concern here is that the McCartneys are not completely informed. I recognize that they're active. I recognize their zeal. I love animals myself. I have two of my three daughters all three daughters actually , but two are animal lovers in the biggest kind of a way.
So for the record, I want to state that certainly myself and my people in Newfoundland and Labrador don't condone inhumane activity towards animals nor do we condone hunting or fishing that would lead to the extinction or endangerment of any species. I want to make that very clear for the record.
Having said that, I want to start off with just a quote from the World Wildlife Federation. I actually had an e-mail from them this morning because they knew that I was going on with you this evening and had this opportunity.
They e-mailed to let us know of their support that they felt that this was not a conservation issue. And I also want to read a quote from a group of veterinarians that were hired by the World Wildlife Fund. They said that the sea harvest is conducted in a humane way.
And the veterinarians concluded that the Canadian harp seal hunt is professional, and highly regulated by comparison with seal hunts in Greenland and the North Atlantic. It has the potential to serve as a model to improve humane practice and reduce seal suffering with the other hunts.
So I think it's important that we state the other side of the case. And I'm very concerned that the McCartneys are not getting all the information.
H. MCCARTNEY: Greenland, they're actually boycotting your products because they're disgusted at how inhumane your seal hunt is.
WILLIAMS: If I had an opportunity, Heather, just for a minute, and I've just got to caution you, I was concerned in your statements where you talk about inhumane and barbaric and archaic.
H. MCCARTNEY: Archaic. Sorry. Let me clear that. I don't mean barbaric. That's just a terminology I used with the land mines. I find it archaic, brutal and cruel.
WILLIAMS: Archaic may have been a fair term in the past. I do appreciate you saying that. Because that was something that concerned me. The other comment that concerned me last night was when you compared this to clubbing young babies, young human babies. And I think that that's actually taking the argument to the extreme.
H. MCCARTNEY: I didn't actually say that last night. I didn't say that last night. I said can you imagine if somebody took your baby away at one month and it was told it was an independent adult, as a lot of the pups are clubbed at one month old. I'll clear that up.
KING: Danny, let me ask you...
WILLIAMS: Actually just let me just clarify, Larry for just one second.
KING: Why must they be clubbed?
WILLIAMS: Well, let me tell you two things. First of all, the comment that was made last night was that, you know, baby bludgeoned to death. And again that's sensational. And that doesn't help the McCartneys' arguments nor does it help our argument.
First of all, the information that hasn't been given is that 90 percent of these seals are killed by bullet. They're not all clubbed. This was a practice in the past. The club that was used years ago was a Norwegian instrument that was deemed to be the most efficient way of killing seals.
When in fact now 90 percent of all seals are actually killed by bullet. It's very effective. It's very efficient and it's very quick.
There's another aspect, which I would like to point out to you, that this seal hunt since 1970 has tripled. It has gone from 2 million seals to 5.8 million seals. That's actually 12 times every person in Newfoundland and Labrador.
If we allow this seal population to completely overpopulate, the inhumane consequences of that is that these seals will starve. We now have a situation...
H. MCCARTNEY: These seals represent the seals of not just Canada, but right up to Greenland. It's completely normal for there to be millions of seals. So let's put it in the right context.
KING: I've got to get in a quick break and then we'll come right back. We'll come right back with Sir Paul McCartney -- let Paul get a word in too -- and Lady Heather McCartney and Danny Williams. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ken McCloud (ph) is ready for the annual Harp seal hunt off Prince Edward Island. He is also prepared for the attention Paul McCartney and the American Humane Society bring to the hunt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've come to get used to the fact that celebrities are coming up here and the animal rights groups using them to try. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would just like them to see our side of it like it is a viable industry. It has been highly regulated. It is well looked after. Just because they say to shut it down, does that give them the right to shut it down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Department of Fisheries and Oceans estimates 4,000 to 5,000 people in eastern Canada rely on the hunt and the $20 million it provides to the local economy. So there's a lot riding on the actions of celebrities like McCartney.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, it could mean $10,000 to $20,000 for every member of the crew, which is significant this time of year. It sure helps catch up the winter bills.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: PFO is accusing the American Humane Society of spreading false information about the hunt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. And before Danny Williams speaks again, Paul, do you want to say something?
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, I'd like to take Danny's point that -- what happened in the 50s and 60s was, there was an over culling of the seal population. And they dropped to a dangerously low level. Where then the government had to step in and actually stop it happening in order to maintain the population.
What is happening now is over the last three years, that level of killing is happening again. And so even though at this moment in time there may be enough seals, the population could drop in the same way as it did in the 50s and 60s. And this is what we feel could be dangerous.
WILLIAMS: Paul, I can assure you that, you know, I am in possession of all the facts on this. There are all about there percent, and that is all of the seals that have actually been taken. And what I had the opportunity...
H. MCCARTNEY: Your department actually assured us that the cod levels wouldn't go down the year before they have to stop the fishing because the cod levels -- you're the same department that showed the cod levels were fine.
WILLIAMS: What I was about to...
KING: All right. Let Danny finish and then Paul. Danny?
WILLIAMS: What I was about to say, Paul, is that what's actually happening on the ground in Newfoundland and Labrador is we're now finding that some of these starving seals are actually going into fresh water rivers in order to feed. That's actually happening. And another misconception which was corrected for you last night...
H. MCCARTNEY: Because you're overfishing. Because you're overfishing.
WILLIAMS: ...on the plane last night on the way to Prince Edward Island that you were on the misunderstanding that this species was in danger. But an official from DFO indicated to you that this species was actually strengthening significantly and now the herd has grown to three times the quantity in the 70s. So the species...
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, well, now that's true, Danny. That is true at this moment, as I say. But this is the kind of thing that happened -- that people were saying before the 50s and the 60s, and then they were -- they reached dangerously low levels, which then did lead to the underpopulation. And you were in serious danger then.
And you now are killing the seals at the same levels. The last three years, you've been killing the seals at the same levels as happening in the 50s and 60s. So there is this possibility.
Now, also this gentleman you mentioned that we did meet on the plane. He came up and said can I put our side of the argument? We said, yes, of course you can. We're not just coming here just to tell the Canadians what to do. We're interested in a debate. We want to find out for ourselves.
He said -- we said, well, the first thing we're hearing, and we've heard it from a lot of people, I heard it from a local MP, is that the real reason why you need to keep the seal population down is because they are depleting the cod stock.
Now, the man from the DFO himself said that is not true. And so it isn't true. In fact the seal -- the harp seals themselves kill a lot of the cod predators. And the only single reason that the cods have been depleted so much is human overfishing.
WILLIAMS: Paul, you haven't heard me say that that's the reason. There is some evidence that could be part of the reason. But that's not why the seal hunt takes place.
KING: Well, what do you make of the argument that most of them are shot, Heather?
H. MCCARTNEY: Well, it's just not true. It's complete and absolute rubbish. It's just not true. Most of them are shot and clubbed in a hacky pick thing, which is a tall, long hook and then they hit them once with it and drag them along the ground. And they only use the one bullet. Again, because it's used for fur. It's not used for any other thing.
P. MCCARTNEY: There are two main hunts here too. Where we went out yesterday, that's for the young seals. That is where most of the clubbing takes place. And I think what Danny's talking about, there's another seal hunt that happens from boats. And that is at the front. And I think that is probably where most of the shooting occurs.
But the point is, you know, however it's done, the thing is, I defy you to show any reasonable-minded person this footage and get them to say, you know, that looks humane to me.
KING: We'll take a break and come back, and I'll ask Danny to justify as stated by Heather. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Danny, two questions. One, what do the Canadian people think of this? And two, what about this point of eco-tourism that you could actually forget all this and increase your tourism ten-fold?
WILLIAMS: Larry, let me tell you a couple of things. First of all, Heather is incorrect. There are 90 percent of these animals that are basically killed by firearms. So I had to set the record straight because I live here and I actually know.
As well, you know, there's an unfair comparison that if you go into a beef slaughter house or a pork slaughter house or a chicken slaughter house and you put white sheets down on the floor, well then you're going to see blood. And that's not nice and that's not pleasant.
But if you take the McCartneys' arguments to the extreme that they're willing to go, there will be no beef slaughter, there will be no pork slaughter, there will be no chicken slaughter, there will be no fish in restaurants, there will be no eggs, there will be no milk for children in school.
H. MCCARTNEY: That's rubbish. We're not arguing that.
WILLIAMS: That is the extent. That is the extent of the argument.
H. MCCARTNEY: Try not to diverse it. It's rubbish. People eat meat. People eat fish. People don't eat the seals, and they use it for fashion.
KING: All right. Heather let him finish.
H. MCCARTNEY: It's not relevant.
WILLIAMS: The other thing that's very relevant here, Larry, is that -- and I don't attribute this to the McCartneys, but this is where I think this is where they're being used. These organizations, the IFAW, Green Peace, PETA raise significant amounts of money. There are hundreds of millions of dollars that are being raised by these organizations.
And let me tell you the FBI right now have a file opened in their terrorism division investigating organizations like this, including the PETA organization, from a terrorism perspective.
So there are some huge issues here that if we had a couple of hours to go into, I would love to deal with. But what I would like to do...
H. MCCARTNEY: Why are you going off on a tangent? Why are you not sticking to the seal hunt, the fact that it's used for fashion, the fact that they are inhumanely killed and hours and hours and years and years of footage to prove it.
Why don't you stick to the subject? You're such a politician. You keep going off on irrelevant things like beef that people eat, fish that people eat. People don't eat seals.
WILLIAMS: This is about propaganda. This is about using superstars like your husband. I invite you to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. I will provide you with information. I will provide you with documentaries that will indicate that people from the IFAW who witness this hunt and said there was nothing wrong with it, were fired by the IFAW.
I want you to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. I want you to know the truth and the facts. And I'm certain that you will partner with us and move this forward because I think we can convince you that this is a very humane undertaking.
P. MCCARTNEY: Well, we're here, Danny. You don't need to invite us. Thanks for the invitation, but we're here. We're actually in the studio here. We are in Newfoundland. And we saw the seals yesterday.
And the point is, you know, what we're making -- the point we're making here is that this is inhumane. No matter how much you say it is humane, it isn't. This is a small percentage of the fishermen's income. No matter how much you say it isn't.
This is nothing to do with the depletion of the cod stocks. That's due to human overfishing. And there are plenty of ideas that the Canadian people might be very interested in, in the same way as whale watching has become a huge industry, which used to be whale hunting.
It now -- and the point about this is, in the international arena, Canada is known as a great country, a great people. And this creates a stain on the character of the Canadian people internationally.
H. MCCARTNEY: Why are you so against the seal hunt being stopped? Why do you not want to give the sealers an alternate income and find a solution here so that the federal government, yourselves and the charities can work together to make sure -- the only people that will be harmed in a very small income way -- but still that's the only justification here, if there are finances taken from the sealers.
There's no other justification on this. Why don't you want that to happen? Why don't you want to have peace talks? Why do you want to keep going to war and doing this to the animals?
WILLIAMS: Heather, first of all, Paul, you're in Prince Edward Island now. And I'm in Newfoundland and Labrador. I'm inviting you to come to my province to see that. We are supported by the World Wildlife Fund, a very reputable organization. This is supported by the United Nations and the International Society for Conservation. These are worldwide policy speakers who speak on behalf of the international community. They see nothing wrong with it. And I just want to make your audience aware...
H. MCCARTNEY: And you don't pay anybody in any of those organizations to oversee...
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: ...And I am really sorry that the McCartneys are being used.
KING: I've got to get a break in. We'll be back with some remaining moments.
H. MCCARTNEY: We're not being used.
KING: Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Danny Williams, premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Heather did ask a good question, why not end it and look for alternative ways? Why not end it?
WILLIAMS: Well, you have to end it on the basis that there's something wrong here. But this is about striking a balance in the ecosystem. And, you know, this is being done properly. It's being done humanely. It is a proper undertaking.
The product that comes from seal is not only fur, it's meat. It provides shelter. It provides fuel. It also provides omega-3 oils, which are used for heart problems, arthritis problems, menstrual problems, liver problems. So there's a worthwhile product.
But, Larry, if I could just add one point. And I would like to pick up on something that Paul said. He's talked about the cod and the endangered species. I would welcome Paul and Heather to come and take up the cause for the fact that our very rich cod stocks and ground fish stocks have been virtually extinguished by overfishing by foreigners from the European community.
I plead with them to take up that cause and see if we can restore those stocks that will create employment for the people that live in my province.
P. MCCARTNEY: OK, Danny. But the thing is, one cause at a time. We're here because in three weeks time, the baby seal pups that we saw and that the viewers of this program have seen are due to be clubbed to death or shot, whichever way you want it. Their lives are due to end.
And in this day and age, in the 21st century, there's got to be an alternative. People look at those pictures, people all over the world look at those pictures, right now, and you will not find one person unless it's you, who says, you know what, that looks good to me. That looks OK. Everything's hunky-dory. The point is, it isn't hunky-dory.
It's disgraceful. And the Canadian people have been polled, and when they've been asked in a poll that's not loaded with all sorts of what-if questions, they are asked, do you know about the seal hunt, do you want it to continue, a majority of the Canadian people say they don't want it to continue.
So we're trying to look at all the sides of the argument, and we're just trying to offer you, Stephen Harper, and the Canadian people a possible way out of this mess.
As I said before, you've got a boycott that's costing you millions at the moment on the Red Lobster front. And these are the kind of things that would end if the seal hunt ended. It's a win-win situation, Danny. Go for it.
WILLIAMS: Paul, I've said to you, you also have to look, there are 6 million white tail deer that are being killed in America. There are 200 million cows that are being slaughtered...
P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, but you're getting off the issue.
H. MCCARTNEY: You keep going off it.
P. MCCARTNEY: We're here to talk about the seal hunt.
WILLIAMS: There are 2 billion chickens that are being slaughtered. Why is the fuzzy seal photo-op the important one? Why aren't you down in a slaughter house where cows are being killed or calves are being killed or lambs are being killed or chickens are being killed?
H. MCCARTNEY: Think about it. OK. Let's forget that you don't care about the humanity.
WILLIAMS: It's quite obvious...
KING: One at a time.
WILLIAMS: It's the easy photo-op where you can get the best picture, so, you know, it's obviously that...
KING: Danny, let her speak.
H. MCCARTNEY: How can your accountants not look at a 129 million lost in snow crab exports to America. One hundred and twenty-nine million lost snow crab exports to America. Sixteen million is the lost...
WILLIAMS: Heather, if you and Paul have your way -- if you and Paul take your argument to where you want to go with it, the Red Lobsters will close, the McDonald's will close, the restaurants will close because they all sell beef or poultry. H. MCCARTNEY: We're not trying to have them to close.
P. MCCARTNEY: We're trying to open them.
H. MCCARTNEY: We're trying to open them, so that they don't boycott.
WILLIAMS: That's exactly where it goes.
P. MCCARTNEY: Danny, the point is...
H. MCCARTNEY: We are trying to stop the boycotts on Canada.
KING: One at a time.
P. MCCARTNEY: Danny, can I just have a word here? The point is, you're getting off the issue. You're talking about all sorts of other issues. And that's very like a politician to do. We're trying to just keep on the issue here.
We mentioned that there is a boycott that is really hurting Canada, a boycott against Canadian seafood. Now instead of wandering off the issue, Heather's saying to you, why, if the seal hunt was finished and good alternative methods like eco-tourism, like licensed buy-back programs, which have been done before in whale watching -- if that were to be considered by the prime minister of Canada, there is a way forward here where even economically the fishermen would be better off.
The boycott would end. The minute the seal hunt ends, that boycott goes away. And so we're looking to help, not confuse the issue.
WILLIAMS: And Paul, if you had all the information, and you were properly informed I would welcome your help. But the problem with the boycott is that it is based on misinformation. And people from the IFAW, independent scientists -- veterinarians have actually looked a this and said that this is humane. The World Wildlife Fund has said it is humane.
These people are not being misled. These people know the facts they are scientists. I encourage you...
H. MCCARTNEY: Are you saying you are not losing millions as a country -- you are not losing millions in export of snow crab? Are you saying that you are not losing millions on people that are boycotting? Is that what you are saying?
KING: I am sorry. We are out of time. We appreciate everybody's participation. We hope the public at large learned more. Our friends in Canada learned more.
And we thank all of our guests, Paul McCartney, Sir Paul McCartney, Lady Heather Mills McCartney and Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Meanwhile, it is time for "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Good night.
'SOME OF MY ALBUMS, I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I WAS ON.'
During forty years in the spotlight, he has been accused of so many things - from walking on a dead man's grave to dyeing his hair. How do you plead, Paul McCartney?"
Words: Phil Sutcliffe Photographer: Bill Bernstein
Sir Paul McCartney is running late. Still, waiting to talk to him, at least there's the chance to browse his Soho Square offices. His staff operate a sot of three-steps-to-heaven system - every 20 minutes or so you're ushered up to the next floor and offered a fresh cup of tea.
So, ground level: cream marble floor, dark wood furniture; walls hung with huge canvasses by Brian Clarke, the artist who painted the sleave for 1982's Tug of War; a McCartney collage of himself and Linda tucked away in a corner. First floor: bookshelf laden with dictionaries and Beatles volumes; a large, dauby protrait of Buddy Holly by McCartney (who owns Holly's publishing rights). Second floor: framed Beatles photos, including a Sgt. Pepper-era classic of John and Paul pointing at each other and laughing their socks off.
There's a murmur of voices from the inner sanctum. One of them umistakably belongs to McCartney. He's been famous since his early 20's, of course. Now, as a sextegenarian knight of the realm, he is almost equally loved and maligned. Following marriage to ex-model Heather Mills in 2002, his relationship with the tabloids has been stormy. And yet there are moves to reach out to new audiences. A lively new album, Chaos and Creation in the Backyard, out in September, is the result of an alliance with Radiohead producer Nigel Godrich.
The door opens. Two sharply suited men are ushered out. McCartney's attire is casual, his office neatly ordered. I join him on a sofa beneath a large abstract painting. His manner is releaxed, confident, look-you-in-the-eye solid. A man of affairs. But the dazzling lad of his youth still lingers within the seasoned face, the light, hoarse voice.
You're a 62 year old ex-Beatle. What do you think when you look in the mirror these days? [Laughs] "Jesus! Is that me?" Nah, I don't stand there that much. Get my hair right once for the day, you know. But seeing my image looking older, that hits me with photographs. [Scouse] "You're not as young as you were, lad." I just have to come to terms with it.
But you did decide to dye your hair... Yeah. I saw [Pet Shop Boy] Neil Tennant and he was goofing about, [impersonates Tennant's archness] "Oooo, Paul, surprise, surprise, you dye your hair." I said, "Come on, man, everyone knows that - it was grey and then suddenly it wasn't!" And I got grief from people blaming Heather for it. God in heaven, 10 years before I met her I was thinking about dyeing my hair. I tried it in Australia once. Looked cool until I went onstage. Then this blue liquid came pouring down my forehead. Highly embarrassing.
There are stories about you ringing up journalists who give your wife a hard time - is that true? It is. Linda got terrible flak when we got married [she was blamed, along with Yoko Ono, for The Beatles' split, and criticised for her musical contribution to Wings]. It's happened with Heather all over again. I tried to let it go over my head, but these columnists got too vindictive. I could see it was hurting Heather. I got a few cuttings together. I couldn't believe it. There was one where this woman was saying, 'What is she doing opening a cosmetics company?' And then it went, 'She's not even pretty.' I thought [intense Scouse], 'Excuse me, I'm ringing her up.' I was like, 'How dare you write all this crap? I'm her husband. I've seen the picture at the top of your column and you're really not pretty. And then you've got it wrong about the cosmetics company. She's actually doing a cosmetics cover for an artificial leg. She's helping people. Do your bloody research.'"
Did it do any good? I had a right go and I felt better. I rang a few of them that week. They got pissed off with me. One of them wrote, [whimpers] "He harangued me for an hour!" I thought, "You deserve hanging, not haranguing."
Is it Yoko syndrome? The same thing. Yoko's a great artist, good woman, loved John, but she got a lot of flak.
How is it for you, being a father in middle age? [Daughter Beatrice was born in 2003] I don't talk about it because Heather and I have agreed to protect our baby's privacy - but it's great!
OK. You've recorded your new album with Radiohead's producer, you played Glastonbury, you've been remixing with [producer/DJ] Freelance Hellraiser. Are you looking for a new audience? Not really. Because of the Beatles 1 and the Back in the World Live albums, all ages come to our shows anyway. Babies get held up to us like, "Here, have a baby!" Glastonbury I'd always wanted to do and I was very chuffed when the moment arrived. Rocking in wellies. The flags reminded me of Henry V. Agincourt. A medieval battlefield. Magic. I went back to Liverpool shortly after and it was all, "Hey, Macca! Great! Saw you on the telly."
Did you go after Nigel Godrich? George Martin recommended him. I rang Nigel, we met, and he said, "All I want to do is make an album that's true to you." That simple statement meant a lot to me. I told him, "I'm going to make a good record. Not, I want to make a good record."
Implying you've let yourself down in the past? [Laughs] Sounds like my cousin Ted Robbins' drunk routine. He's a comedian, been on Phoenix Nights [as rival nightclub owner Den Perry], [Maudlin moan] "I've let meself down, I've let you down, I've let everyone down." Then he sings My Way. Yeah, some of my albums, I can't believe what I was...on. [1986's] Press to Play, I read the tracklist and I think, "Wonder how that song goes?"
You dropped your band from the album. What was that about? That was really Nigel's call. He started saying, "You're in a safety zone with these guys, complacent." He said I should play most of the instruments. He said, "You can blame me if you want."
So you did. So I did? No, I explained it and the guys were all cool about it. [They're back for the world tour.]
But you are tough, that's the truth, isn't it? Yeah, you've gotten me. There were some tense moments making the album. Nigel wasn't syncophantic, he said from the off, "I know what I like." There were some heated discussions. There's a song called Riding to Vanity Fair where we got down to it, [angrily] "I like it!", "I don't like it!", "Well, I like it!" But then I realized there's not point in charging him down like that, I should listen. We actually moved on to why he didn't like it - "The first line's good, after that..." "Oh, how about this then?"
It was emotional making that track. We kept at it. Slaved on it. Forced it to work.
Riding to Vanity Fair is about the difficulties of friendship and I'm wondering whether those lines, "We sang along/When all the songs were sung/Believing every line" were about John and George. Welll...All my mates, really. Everyone I sang along with. Listening to Carl Perkins with John and George. And a school friend called Ian James. I hung out a lot with him, trying to pull the same girls. Unsuccessfully. Your life revolved around listening to records and the thrill was sharing it with people who knew what you meant when you said, "Gene Vincent!" or "Eddie Cochran!"
Some songs on the new album sound very personal. How Kind of You seems to be about Linda's death - lyrics such as "I won't forget how unafraid you were that long, dark night." It wasn't in my mind. After Linda died, a lot of people related everything I said to that, but most of my songs are not that specific.
Is that a strange sensation, people interpreting your songs as "confessional" and thinking they know about you? It's always happened. The first time I realized how people take their own meanings from what you write was in 1963 when I went back to Liverpool. I was round at Rory Storm's mum Vi's house [Rory Storm and the Hurricanes was Ringo's band before the Beatles]. I played From Me to You to her, [sings] "If there's anything that you want..." She was like [acts out deeply moved, open-mouthed, amazed]. She said, "Aah, I didn't know you could think like that." I was like, "It's just a song." But it hit an emotional nerve, I don't know what, she didn't say, but it made me realize something about the power of songs.
Does all that mean you hold back on your deepest emotions when you write? I don't think so. The feelings are all in there. But, for instance, I wrote a song called Here Today for John [on 1982's Tug of War] and that could have been very, "When I met John it was at Woolton village fete." A specific story. But I thought, "What would you say if you were here today?" It's not that I'm trying to hide anything.
I was talking about lyrics with [Bee Gee] Robin Gibb and he said, "Sometimes you say any old words, you talk gobbledegook, just to make something happen in the world that wasn't there two minutes ago." Often you think, "That's nonsense." Sometimes it's, "Oh, I see." The day after I'd written Hey Jude I was sitting at the piano at my house in London showing it to John and Yoko. When I got to "the movement you need is on your shoulder," I spun around and said, [disgusted] "I'm changing that!" John said, "You're not! It's the best ling in the bloody song."
To go back to Here Today, that actually is quite specific. It's about you and John and it's pretty emotional. Those lines, "What about the night we cried?/Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside." What were you remembering? Mmm. The Beatles were under a lot of pressure, touring all the time, and we didn't have any release. The night we were flying to Jacksonville, Florida [9 September 1964], but to avoid a hurrican we had to put down in Key West, which at that time was the end of nowhere, like in the Humphrey Bogart move [Key Largo]. We stayed up all night drinking, all of us together, chatting about everything, and there came a moment where we, um, cried. Which we'd never done. I'm not sure, but the likely explanation is that John and I had both lost our mothers - mine died of breast cancer, John's in a road accident - and it always been a sort of unspoken bond between us. Knowing that we had both been throught that grief and horror. That night we finally got round to talking about it.
In terms of the heritage that you and John created, you've done a couple of things that upset people in the last year or so. Yeah. The names thing and...what else are you thinking of?
Some people saw the Let it Be...Naked version as anti-John. Never. We talked about it at the time. We had a copy. We agreed that the ...Naked version was better. It's so John. You can't tell me that he would have loved soaring string and ladies' voices going [contralto wail] "Woooo!" I'm putting words into his mouth, but I...certainly knew him better than a lot of people. Anyway, the famous changing the order of the names...
...Looked like resentment? Well, it wasn't. When I try to explain it, it gets blown out of proportion again so I can't be bothered. [ponders, teeters] But I will fucking try to explain it again. In the Beatles Anthology CD booklet the lyrics to Yesterday had a picture of John above them and the credit was, "Written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney." When it's "Lennon-McCartney" I don't have a problem, it's a logo. I merely asked if, on that one occasion when we were using the full names, it could say, "Written by Paul McCartney and John Lennon." And I was rebuffed.
By? You guess. So that became a bit of a bone of contention with me - and a complete misconception that I was trying to walk on a dead man's grave, ruin his credit. Now I think I'll be trying to explain that forever. So, now I could not care less about where my effing name is! No worry to me at all. Just so everybody knows, I'm off that one.
But don't get it wrong. I was one of the most important people in John's life and he was one of the most important people in my life. I'm the only person who wrote that body of work with him, who was in the room with him and I...For something tiny like this to cloud that is ridiculous. I love him and always will.
After everything you've been through, what drives you now? What are you seacrhing for? Mmm. I don't think I ever have been a searcher. I take things as they come. I'll tell you what sums it up to me. The son of a friend of ours was asked how he felt on his birthday and he said, "Like I'm walking along the same street, but in new shoes." That's how I feel about it all. I hope to continue walking in new shoes.
"Sorry, gotta go, need a pee," he says standing, shaking hands, making for the door. But then he pauses at his Wurlitzer jukebox, hits a button, and after a couple of chinks a 45 slaps down. Elvis enquires, "A-well-a bless my soul, a-what's a-wrong with me?" and McCartney starts to jiggle with all of his might, grinning like a boy. Just for ten seconds that is, then the working day resumes.
The following week, McCartney calls to tie up loose ends. He's being driven through the streets of Liverpool on the way from conducting a songwriting masterclass at the Institute for the Performing Arts - his, and George Harrison's, old school which he rescued from dereliction - to John Lennon Airport. And he's just passed 20 Forthlin Road, the terraced house where he lived in from 1955-63, now owned by the National Trust.
"It's strange," he says. "I was just saying, Oh, my old girlfriend lived there, I used to trim that hedge...I've never been back to the house and I'm not sure I could - a museum I used to live in?"
He's arrived at John Lennon. The motto painted on the roof reads, "Above us only sky." He says he's got to go, but doesn't quite yet.
"After we talked the other day, I was thinking, I just wish I was able to analyze what I do and not play down all these things in my life that go into it and say what songwriting means to me. But I find it very hard to put into words. I can't."
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